Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

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RogueSun
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1081 Post by RogueSun »

Loremaster Avarael wrote:With the Loremaster now knowing all of the spells of the eight Lores I can't wait to lick the tears from the faces of the Druchii filth. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
But he can't use the End Times spells. :/

Then again, a Lvl4 High Mage with Book of Ashur (since your Loremaster will have BoH of course) is casting at an effective Lvl 6 and can spam the ever living piss out of Arcane Unforging. Characters be damned!

If he HAPPENS to be riding around with a unit of Sisters who happen to also know the entire lores of Beasts and Life, improving their ward save to 3+, then so be it.
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1082 Post by Tethlis »

Truthiness wrote: Sorry brother, but you started the talk of "community," which by it's definition is a generalization. I simply attempted to continue with your terminology, but perhaps not within the same context. If I in anyway implied you specifically had a problem with the stagnation, I apologize. Making such an insinuation without actually knowing how you had stood on the issue (spoiler: I didn't), would be supremely patronizing. You have to at least give me that there were a significant number of people that disliked the stagnation (and retcon of Storm of Chaos) of Fantasy. It seemed to accompany the release of every Army Book since 8th edition began.
No offense taken. When I said "community" though, I was talking about Warhammer Fantasy players in general and how they try to cobble together GW's various releases into a functional ruleset. I think most of us will agree that players who attend tournaments and care about the future of the game system in a competitive sense do represent a community. I didn't mean Ulthuan.net.

I do agree that there are plenty of people that don't like the fluff stagnation at all. No disagreement there. However, I was happy with GW creating a broad spectrum environment that allows players to create their own fluff, their owns campaigns, etc. The fluff may not have progressed much, but it did allow broad freedom for players to explore their own creativity :)

Anyway, I actually got to read through the fluff today. My opinion of the book was not improved.
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1083 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Iluvatar wrote:I'm really sorry to say this, but all people that expect great fluff from GW are in the wrong from the start. If you want great reading, I suggest other universes, where the origin is books and there are, possibly, derived games (and not the other way). My preferences of such are Tolkien, Moorcock and Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time.
While I don't expect them to be able to produce great read they are perfectly capable of doing so and they proved that with their HH series. These books are actually good read in general.

What I do expect, however, is that they might be interested in delivering the product of the best quality. And part of this product is not only the models itself but also the rules and its background. :)
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1084 Post by mcmulligan »

Surprised nobody has discussed a couple of interesting notes in the book (not the novel).

Who is the "warlord of yesteryear reborn conqueror of today"? Drums in the mountains would indicate Dwarves, Goblins, Orcs, Ogres, Skaven...

Why does the land on the other side of the portal that Araloth goes through look a whole lot like Khemri, or possibly Lustria? Pyramid, obelisks, etc

And, since it clearly wasn't the Elves, which of the Elder races stole from Tzeentch, and what did they steal? Dwarves and Lizardmen are the only remaining options.
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1085 Post by RogueSun »

It's probably a Necron homeworld because deep down we all know GW is desperately trying to find a way to make the two games compatible.

Likewise, it was probably the Eldar who stole from Tzeentch.
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1086 Post by Domine Nox »

RogueSun wrote:It's probably a Necron homeworld because deep down we all know GW is desperately trying to find a way to make the two games compatible.
It used to be compatible. GW ruined the compatibility when they made 3rd edition 40k.
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1087 Post by draxynnic »

@RogueSun: Pyramids and such also seem to be a general sign of the Old Ones - they were responsible for the design of the Lizardmen cities, and it's been implied that there may have been some cultural exchange between the Lizardmen of the Southlands and the early Nehekharans.
Baleanoon wrote:
draxynnic wrote:First I've already done: Kurnous and Isha disobeyed him, and being given to Khaine was the punishment.

Second is a matter of relative power - he's weaker than the Chaos Gods and wasn't in a position to do something about it if he wanted to. Of course, that part, like elven souls going to Slaanesh, is an 8E import from 40K where Asuryan was explicitly dead and thus completely unable to do squat.
Ah and you realize that Asuryan never allowed his chosen king to be killed to defeated to the point of death. Phoenix Kings with the will to push on dying under mysterious circumstances, those who let Malekith be living peacefully.

The second is about keeping Khaine on a leash he apparently had no desire or ability to do so. Or poor Vaul? Basically your argument is Asuryan wasn't an ass because he knew he was over matched and then let his kingdom be further weakened by giving his children to his insane brother as punishment and thus increasing the mismatch... Sounds like a man after my own heart. :roll:
The question I'm asking is... when did all this fluff appear?

I haven't had the opportunity to read ET:Khaine yet and I don't read the BL novels, but the impression I'm getting is that all this is relatively recent retconning of the fluff in order to suit the End Times. And yes, this is retconning - you seem to be arguing from the position that all this was planned from the start, but unless I've somehow missed it entirely this thing about Khaine picking a fight with Chaos is just as new as the 'Great Lie' stuff. You seem to be taking the position that this is something that GW planned from the start...

...but GW has retconned their fluff on a regular basis. Compare and contrast the Bretonnia of 5E and the Bretonnia of 6E, for instance. With the High Elves, it's been more subtle, but mostly it's been acceptable (but note that there was also an outcry with the 8E book...). Nurgle having Isha is a retcon - a retcon they've made to bring the fluff in line with 40K fluff, a setting in which most of the Eldar pantheon, specifically including Asuryan, is dead and thus in absolutely no position to mount a rescue mission (in fact, what is left of them may even have reason to feel a degree of gratitude towards Nurgle for keeping Isha free of Slaanesh). Asuryan giving Kurnous and Isha to Khaine is, in that setting, presented as an act of anger of being disobeyed, one that he's implied to regret afterwards, but cannot rescind because undoing a command would undermine his authority (which is assholey, granted, but in a fashion that suits his character as the god of rulership). But he does allow for Vaul to negotiate for their release.

Asuryan has always been one for harsh punishments, but nevertheless, a dignified ruler, and in previous fluff his assholery has been through acts of anger, not a deliberate campaign of sabotaging his own people.

At this stage, you also have to look at the reasons why people might have started collecting High Elves in the first place...
some part is just liking the models or the way it plays, but some people are also drawn to a particular race due to the fluff that surrounds it. For the High Elves, this can come in several forms - the tragedy of the war with the Dark Elves, their role as guardians of the world (one that, even in 8E with all the grimdarking that has been applied, still carries a sense of altruism - they've been retconned into being ruthless about the lives of others, but they're still taking losses they can ill afford out of a sense of responsibility for the world. They're influenced by Chaos, burying the natural elven instincts of compassion and empathy beneath overwhelming pride - but for them, that sense of pride has lead them to take responsibility for the world, regardless of the cost of themselves as well as to other races), and their sense of mysticism. That last is rendered completely hollow when it is made out that their chief god is not just flawed, but an ass of epic proportions - something that absolutely was not required to take the story in the direction they wanted to, making it even more of a slap in the face.

All of the patronism in the world can't change the fact that the fluff now demonstrably has been retconned from what it was fifteen or more years ago, and in a direction that leaves many people wondering if this is still a setting they're interested in.
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1088 Post by Mireadur »

draxynnic wrote:@RogueSun: Pyramids and such also seem to be a general sign of the Old Ones - they were responsible for the design of the Lizardmen cities, and it's been implied that there may have been some cultural exchange between the Lizardmen of the Southlands and the early Nehekharans.
Baleanoon wrote:
draxynnic wrote:First I've already done: Kurnous and Isha disobeyed him, and being given to Khaine was the punishment.

Second is a matter of relative power - he's weaker than the Chaos Gods and wasn't in a position to do something about it if he wanted to. Of course, that part, like elven souls going to Slaanesh, is an 8E import from 40K where Asuryan was explicitly dead and thus completely unable to do squat.
Ah and you realize that Asuryan never allowed his chosen king to be killed to defeated to the point of death. Phoenix Kings with the will to push on dying under mysterious circumstances, those who let Malekith be living peacefully.

The second is about keeping Khaine on a leash he apparently had no desire or ability to do so. Or poor Vaul? Basically your argument is Asuryan wasn't an ass because he knew he was over matched and then let his kingdom be further weakened by giving his children to his insane brother as punishment and thus increasing the mismatch... Sounds like a man after my own heart. :roll:
The question I'm asking is... when did all this fluff appear?

I haven't had the opportunity to read ET:Khaine yet and I don't read the BL novels, but the impression I'm getting is that all this is relatively recent retconning of the fluff in order to suit the End Times. And yes, this is retconning - you seem to be arguing from the position that all this was planned from the start, but unless I've somehow missed it entirely this thing about Khaine picking a fight with Chaos is just as new as the 'Great Lie' stuff. You seem to be taking the position that this is something that GW planned from the start...

...but GW has retconned their fluff on a regular basis. Compare and contrast the Bretonnia of 5E and the Bretonnia of 6E, for instance. With the High Elves, it's been more subtle, but mostly it's been acceptable (but note that there was also an outcry with the 8E book...). Nurgle having Isha is a retcon - a retcon they've made to bring the fluff in line with 40K fluff, a setting in which most of the Eldar pantheon, specifically including Asuryan, is dead and thus in absolutely no position to mount a rescue mission (in fact, what is left of them may even have reason to feel a degree of gratitude towards Nurgle for keeping Isha free of Slaanesh). Asuryan giving Kurnous and Isha to Khaine is, in that setting, presented as an act of anger of being disobeyed, one that he's implied to regret afterwards, but cannot rescind because undoing a command would undermine his authority (which is assholey, granted, but in a fashion that suits his character as the god of rulership). But he does allow for Vaul to negotiate for their release.

Asuryan has always been one for harsh punishments, but nevertheless, a dignified ruler, and in previous fluff his assholery has been through acts of anger, not a deliberate campaign of sabotaging his own people.

At this stage, you also have to look at the reasons why people might have started collecting High Elves in the first place...
some part is just liking the models or the way it plays, but some people are also drawn to a particular race due to the fluff that surrounds it. For the High Elves, this can come in several forms - the tragedy of the war with the Dark Elves, their role as guardians of the world (one that, even in 8E with all the grimdarking that has been applied, still carries a sense of altruism - they've been retconned into being ruthless about the lives of others, but they're still taking losses they can ill afford out of a sense of responsibility for the world. They're influenced by Chaos, burying the natural elven instincts of compassion and empathy beneath overwhelming pride - but for them, that sense of pride has lead them to take responsibility for the world, regardless of the cost of themselves as well as to other races), and their sense of mysticism. That last is rendered completely hollow when it is made out that their chief god is not just flawed, but an ass of epic proportions - something that absolutely was not required to take the story in the direction they wanted to, making it even more of a slap in the face.

All of the patronism in the world can't change the fact that the fluff now demonstrably has been retconned from what it was fifteen or more years ago, and in a direction that leaves many people wondering if this is still a setting they're interested in.
These are exctly my thoughts. The things people ar e discussing are so distant from old background that ifeel is a different setting and in fact we are playing different games.

Thanks for explaining it so well.
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1089 Post by RE.Lee »

I've just finished reading the book (ET:Khaine). Very enjoyable read in form, on par with Nagash, much better than Glottkin. Interestingly the latter was the only one so far that didn't credit Mythic Entertainment. I think that might have something to do with the quality of the writing.

As for the story itself - it was interesting. The elves in general were in need of some sort of shake up. Malekith was turning into a parody of an antagonist after all those years, resembling Gargamel more than Sauron. The twins' (Tyrion and Teclis) Curse of Aenarion desperately needed some sort of climax, too. The twist that the final battle wasn't just good versus bad made it much more interesting - the transformation of both forces was gradual and plausible, I think. When Caledor joins Malekith you hate him for it, when Aislinn does the same thing towards the end of the story - he's everybody's hero. Still, even in the end, the authors don't push the idea that Malekith is suddenly the good guy. Also, Tyrion is never entirely damned. This makes the story much more engaging than the one-dimensional Glottking plot.

What will become of the Elves now, I can't wait to find out. Moving them the Athel Loren puts them much closer to where the real action takes place, and perhaps they'll be more open from now on. Finubar would be proud.

Araloth seemingly invading Nehekhara by himself is an interesting development. As always, the final page of ET books is the most intriguing, even if I can't stand the character involved. Dear GW, stop trying to make Araloth happen. He's not going to happen.
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1090 Post by John Rainbow »

RE.Lee wrote:Dear GW, stop trying to make Araloth happen. He's not going to happen.
He's so fetch! :lol:
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1091 Post by RE.Lee »

I bet Lileath was half a virgin when she met him!

This should probably stop right here ;)
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1092 Post by Malossar »

John Rainbow wrote:
RE.Lee wrote:Dear GW, stop trying to make Araloth happen. He's not going to happen.
He's so fetch! :lol:

I think you just won the internets.


I actually enjoyed the book and I've been playing high elves much longer than 8th edition. The story was plausible especially considering the desperate circumstances. I think I enjoyed Imrik the best. His character arc was the most well done.
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1093 Post by RE.Lee »

Also, whats up with Eldyra? Is she going against Nagash? Is she joining up with Settra (is that Araloths mission?)? This was perhaps the only link to the part of the story going on in the Old World, I'm very interested in how it develops!
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1094 Post by Ladril Caledor »

I absolutely love what they've done with the End Times. A few months ago I dug out my twenty year old lead High Elf models out of the attic and decided to paint them all. As a child I used to play early edition Warhammer, but never had the patience to paint. I was about half way through painting up my red and gold Caledor army then all of this End Times stuff came along, and it totally caught my imagination and reinvigorated my interest in all aspects of the hobby. Now I'm painting, playing games, reading fluff, and tinkering with army lists every day. Given how rapidly the End Times books sold out, I'm sure there are countless other old-timers like me getting back into Warhammer right now.

I'm also willing to bet that sales of Elf models, and activity on forums like these, is running higher then it has for years.

My only criticism is the tiny number of books that were available to buy and the lack of new models (perfect time for new Malekith and Tyrion minis in my opinion). I think the fluff and new rules are great. I genuinely believe that GW underestimated just how many Elf players there are out there and how much interest End Times: Khaine would generate.
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1095 Post by merlinux »

Ok, I've read the book (End Times: Khaine) and I must say that, if not a great book, the history really excels (at least in my opinion). The main story is great, the idea of having lots of flashbacks its amazing (enforcing the idea of a long-lived Malekith).
I was VERY sceptic about the book, but what I found was a “well constructed book”, with lots of good representation of characters, events and a lot of action.
And after read it I just go directly to the GW web looking for new high elf models to buy, in hope to find any (may be for Christmas?)

Now, I must be agree with most of the people when they say that GW just underestimate the impact that such book would have on the Elves players, and how much active we are.
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1096 Post by SpellArcher »

I buy every army book and have been playing elves for 30 years. I'm holding off from buying any End Times books until it becomes essential for a tournament I enter. Instead I'm starting a Chaos Dwarf army. Sure, they'll invalidate it's rules at some point but these things come and go. I'll still have the army.
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1097 Post by Nyeave »

I just can't belive GW forwent the chance of releasing some cool new models with the Elf Release. They did a ton of new Nurgle models with the Glottkin release and lets face it: Nurgle is a niche - i am sure there are loads of WoC, Monogod DoC and Beastmen players who will never touch anything Nurgle. However when it came to the elf release they had the chance to make something all elf players could buy (I am daring a guess that quite a percentage of the total playerbase plays elves of some kind) and just didn't...
Seems like an odd business perspective to me.
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1098 Post by Domine Nox »

It's because of the Hobbit releases. I'm still holding out expectations that they will release elf models later.
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1099 Post by RE.Lee »

There's no new models in the book, so I doubt they had any planned for this particular release. A pity, really. Tyrion deserved a kick ass sculpt for all the trouble he's gone through as did Malekith. Perhaps later in the End Times...
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1100 Post by Domine Nox »

But that's just it, there are no new models in the book, cause they haven't made them yet, because they spent their time doing Hobbit stuff. I remain convinced that there will be Malekith, Imrik, Tyrion and possibly Everqueen models in the future. In the same way that the Horus Heresy stuff released rules for all the Primarchs and they are still playing catch up on making models to go with them.
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1101 Post by Nyeave »

But thats exactly what bothers me. With the Glottkin release they obviously just invented new characters for the sake of making new models. With Nagash they made new models for some existing characters on new mounts and then gave nagash a new model. Granted the old one was hideous but have you seen malekith lately?...
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1102 Post by NCEITFOA »

I would have thought there'd be a new Malekith and Alarielle mini, although I doubt they'll release them now, but a new Tyrion mini wouldn't make sense. The Glottkin are still fine because they are confirmed to survive meaning they can easily be brought back into the fluff in 9th edition, but Tyrion's dead-dead. A new mini for him would have very limited use, the End Times campaign, and it wouldn't make sense for it to appear in any 'Elf' Army Book appearing in 9th edition since Tyrion was literally the enemy of that faction and thus can't even make sense as a historical character ala Azhag or Gorbad. I agree with you though that he deserves something for all the crap he's been put through but I doubt he'll get anything.
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1103 Post by Domine Nox »

NCEITFOA wrote:I would have thought there'd be a new Malekith and Alarielle mini, although I doubt they'll release them now, but a new Tyrion mini wouldn't make sense. The Glottkin are still fine because they are confirmed to survive meaning they can easily be brought back into the fluff in 9th edition, but Tyrion's dead-dead. A new mini for him would have very limited use, the End Times campaign, and it wouldn't make sense for it to appear in any 'Elf' Army Book appearing in 9th edition since Tyrion was literally the enemy of that faction and thus can't even make sense as a historical character ala Azhag or Gorbad. I agree with you though that he deserves something for all the crap he's been put through but I doubt he'll get anything.
Is he though? He did still wear the Heart of Avelorn, and while I personally have not gotten that far in the book yet, I believe I heard people saying that Teclis takes his body away. So... is he really dead dead?
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1104 Post by RE.Lee »

Tyrion's (and Teclis's) deaths are not that certain. Bringing him back would make sense. On top of that, we don't know if future editions will include the end times at all.

As for including enemy characters in army books - Arkhan the Black, anyone? :shock:
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1105 Post by NCEITFOA »

Sorry but I highly doubt he's coming back, of course possible, but unlikely. People have been talking a lot about Imrik catching a last sight of Teclis cradling Tyrion's corpse with unknown-strength but what they haven't mentioned, that I've seen here yet, is that on the same page there's a fluff extract in which Araloth approaches Teclis, Teclis says that if Tyrion had been in his position Tyrion would have found a way to end it without fighting, and then Araloth broaches the idea that Alarielle could bring him back and Teclis shoots this down because it would bring back Khaine as well. So Teclis does literally state that Tyrion should not be resurrected even if it turned him back to normal because Tyrion is literally Khaine in a sense. As for the Heart of Averlorn, well, since Alarielle is probably also aware of Teclis' reasoning, otherwise she would probably have resurrected him on the spot, and pretty much agrees with everything Malekith and Teclis do the whole story through I doubt the Heart of Averlorn will play a role. After all if she doesn't want Tyrion coming back she'd know to get rid of it or depower it. I mean it would be pretty egregious if she just 'forgot' the super powerful gift of love artefact she gave him.

So, to those who have hopes for it, sorry but it doesn't seem either Teclis or Alarielle want Tyrion back and I can't think of anyone else in the setting who could possibly have a motivation too.

The part about Arkhan's true though, he's an example, admittedly he's not historical but contemporary but, still, you're right. I guess that would make it possible but I personally just doubt we'll ever see Tyrion again. On a side note Teclis is obviously alive, he's probably still major important, the little bit about holding Tyrion is kind of weird too me too, I'd have fought its an easter egg about his return but literally they've got Teclis on the same page saying 'no' to that. Maybe just no one else was willing to take Tyrion's body and Teclis felt a little guilt about just letting it rot in the ocean. At this point nothing they do with Tyrion surprises me.
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1106 Post by CaledorRises »

The hope for Tyrion's return is in the details. Firstly, the odd note in Teclis's voice when he talks about Tyrion would have found a way. Maybe Teclis is going to try and find a way now?
NCEITFOA wrote:So Teclis does literally state that Tyrion should not be resurrected even if it turned him back to normal because Tyrion is literally Khaine in a sense.
No, he doesn't. This is where it is critically important that we look at the exact wording. He only says that Alarielle cannot bring him back, and he only says that reviving Tyrion would bring back Khaine. He then says that it is good that the Destroyer is gone, but not Tyrion! The chance is that Teclis can bring back Tyrion as the Avatar of Light. Teclis bound the Wind of Light into his staff, not himself. There has to be a reason for this. I'm hoping that Teclis uses the magic of the Wind of Light to cleanse Tyrion, or at least hold Khaine at bay.

The Elves will need someone with Tyrion's strength if they are going to carry on. End Times Khaine all but directly states that Imrik will be the new King and Malekith will fall into darkness. Teclis says that he is worried of what Malekith will become, the description of Malekith says that "a darker path awaits him", and in the description of Imrik, it says that as long as Imrik is alive and wields the Star Lance, the Elves will endure. When he dies, the elves die. Note this is not in the description of Malekith or Alarielle. Both of them could easily die. I don't think Teclis's plan is going to work. They have lost 3 winds, and Nagash is not likely to take orders or suffer a rival...
draxynnic
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1107 Post by draxynnic »

The note about wielding the Star Lance is interesting - it suggests that there's something about the Star Lance itself that will be important in the future. Is it simply that at some point there'll be something that needs to be charged with a really powerful lance, or is there some mystical importance to the lance beyond simply being a powerful weapon?
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Curu Olannon
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1108 Post by Curu Olannon »

Guys can we please keep this thread for actual rumours and leaks? We have several fluff topics running.
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Ladril Caledor
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1109 Post by Ladril Caledor »

Agreed, here's some pages from Khaine that I haven't seen elsewhere on Ulthuan.net. I found them in the Tomb Kings forum.

Image

Image

That completes the set of new rules pages, as far as I know (the others are on page 30 and 32 of this thread if you haven't seen them). Now if only someone would scan and upload the fluff ;)
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Aicanor
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Re: Campaign of the end of times Rumors & Leaks

#1110 Post by Aicanor »

Very, very interesting find courtesy of our darker cousins over at Druchii.net: http://www.thetowerofstars.co.uk/#!The- ... 72A8464BD1
Is it Matt Ward we have to thank for Khaine book?
No, I think Khaine was my favourite to write because it brings together so much from the histories of the three elven races – not least, a fantastic, sprawling cast of characters, hip-deep in their own agendas. There's a challenge to that, and also a sense of satisfaction when all the pieces come together, as they did here. The scale also plays a part as well, I think. To date, the End Times have concerned themselves with the fate of realms, but Khaine determines the fate of a continent!
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