HE win US Masters!

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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HE win US Masters!

#1 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

I have just found out HE won US masters! Check the final standings!

US Masters - Final Standings

I will try to find the army list the winner played with. I hope we will have some highlights from the tournament and from the winner himself somewhere!

Cheers!
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#2 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Found the army list!

Prince, Heavy Armor, Shield, Giant blade, Dragon helm, Talis of Endurance

Archmage, lvl 4, BOH, high magic, Tals of Preservation

Lothern Sea Helm, BSB, Shield of the meryrm, obsidian trinket, potion of toughness

Mage, Channeling staff, heavens, ring of fury

Handmaiden of the Everqueen , reaver bow, potion of str


34 spearmen, FC, Banner of eternal flame

13 Archers, std / mus

6 Ellyrian Reavers

24 Phoenix Guard, FC, Razor banner

13 Sisters of Avelorn

3 Eagle Claw Bolt Throwers

Great Eagle (1#, 50 pts)

Great Eagle (1#, 50 pts)

Swedish Comp: 11.4

Look at these useless Spearelves, and Seahelm, and Handmaiden :D Oh, and the Prince seem to be a pedestrian too!

Cheers!
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#3 Post by Sackree »

That's an excellent result for the Asur.

I hope someone finds out what his list was I'm very eager to know.

Edit: ninja'd with the list =]


No banner, no frost phoenix, no lions, What sort of list is this haha. Just jokes of course.

Very well done to him, he must be a fantastic general, I would love to hear reports of his victories.
Last edited by Sackree on Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#4 Post by Ferny »

lol, if someone posted that list here I'd suggest it was character heavy (leading to a worrying lack of units on the table) and that the prince is under-protected on foot...shows what I know :lol:

Looking forward to learning more about how it played, match ups and...if they're out there...some sort of batraps. Swordie, don't suppose you could cover this as well as your own could you :wink: ?

Well done to the player. Don't suppose he's one of you guys/anyone knows him?
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#5 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Ok, tried to find his match ups:

1. vs. WoC - 15:5 win
2. vs. DE - 7:13 loss
3. vs. DoC - 17:3 win
4. vs. WoC - 20:0 win
5. vs. WoC - 19-1 win

Seems like he was a bane of forces of darkness :D

Sorry, Ferny, I wish I was there to witness all that happened at the event, I simply post what I find from other places. Who knows, maybe Justin Burgy will visit this forum and we will have a first hand report :)

Cheers!
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#6 Post by Francis »

Is that list for real? Well, at least the brought the PG and the BoH archmage :P .
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#7 Post by Eirik »

It seems possible the list was tailored to counter heavy armor and damage output armies. The large amount of high-S anti-armor shooting and ward saves seems made to take on tough foes, and practically tailored to WoC. It seems like it paid off. I wondered if it would have a vulnerability to high volumes of shooting and mobile, weaker troops. The result against dark elf could indicate that this is true.

A list that takes advantage of the meta beautifully if you ask me, I'm thinking I'll replicate it and try agianst my dwarf and golbin friends to see how it works.

It makes a good case for RBT being our best option in the current meta.
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#8 Post by Tethlis »

1. Shoot everything that moves
2. March 3++ Phoenix Guard and Prince across the table.
3. ????
4. Profit

No surprise given the matchups. Enough shooting to decimate all three armies he faces without effort, with the sisters' armor piercing and flaming being valuable. Fight whatever gets close. Very nice.

Ninja: agreed with Eirik. Well suited for the current meta.

Also a good time to have a loss in Round 2. Strong start, then get knocked out of the top tables. Let the nastiest crap brawl among themselves while scoring easier matchups to farm points on the lower tables when people start to drag after the opening rounds.
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#9 Post by Gondarion »

Awesome. I especially like how it seems he used the ability to grant superlative ward saves. We don't know he had the L4 in the Phoenix Guard.
Discussing the idea of redesigning WHF from scratch sound like fun? If so...
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#10 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

There are no easy match ups at Masters. 8)

It is hard to tailor the army list if you don't know who you are going to face. If you watched videos by OnceBitten360 it was very hard to come up with the middle ground in terms of comp pack and that also affected what people took to that tournament. The fact that he played so many WoC is not the result of the huge number of these armies at the event.

The guy did the great job, it was not easy at all, why not give him the credit and acknowledge his great achievement with the army that many would deem sub-optimal? No banner, no frosty in it. :?
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#11 Post by Tethlis »

If that were true, every round would end in a draw wouldn't it ;). Scoring an easier matchup is a different thing than a cakewalk auto-win. I'm sure this list would have preferred WoC over Empire, for example.

I suspect that the DE matchup might benefit from having the Sisters get the Ward Save, even having Ironcurse to guard against hostile RBTs.

Edit: as for no banner, no Frostie, the banner does little for Phoenix Guard so is only useful If you have another unit that can carry it. Similarly the frostie is nice but is vulnerable in this meta of cannons and a growing presence in ranged firepower. With the resurgence of Dwarves, the phoenix is long gone from my list. I wouldn't view this list as "weak" at all, but instead providing practical tools for a good player in an environment with well-defined meta. I am very surprised at the low number of redirectors and warmachine hunters though. I hope we get to hear directly from him/her about how the games played.
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#12 Post by Shining wolf »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Found the army list!

Prince, Heavy Armor, Shield, Giant blade, Dragon helm, Talis of Endurance

Archmage, lvl 4, BOH, high magic, Tals of Preservation

Lothern Sea Helm, BSB, Shield of the meryrm, obsidian trinket, potion of toughness

Mage, Channeling staff, heavens, ring of fury

Handmaiden of the Everqueen , reaver bow, potion of str


34 spearmen, FC, Banner of eternal flame

13 Archers, std / mus

6 Ellyrian Reavers

24 Phoenix Guard, FC, Razor banner

13 Sisters of Avelorn

3 Eagle Claw Bolt Throwers

Great Eagle (1#, 50 pts)

Great Eagle (1#, 50 pts)

Swedish Comp: 11.4

Look at these useless Spearelves, and Seahelm, and Handmaiden :D Oh, and the Prince seem to be a pedestrian too!

Cheers!
This could lead to an interesting discussion . In the italian biggest forum people were complaining that sweedish lists were etc list , i guess that not following that line paid off . If you ( big and almighty good player of this forum ( i'm looking at you right now Swordmaster and even furion and maybe someone else ? Those two are the ones i follow regularly ) ) would like to write something down about the list i think a lot of people would gladly read it . I know that each one has his own playstyle but some thoughts from experienced player can only help newbies ( like me ) right ? I mean :
This list annihilates WoC . Ok , the player can be as good as you want , but he has to have a solid list right ? This list even score a 11 that is not really that low since there are nasty DoC lists that are 14 and even some list of this forum sit around 14-15 and proved themselves very hard to break .
Questions :
1) How the hell is he supposed to deal with heavy armoures troops ? He has "only" : prince , bolt throwers and the handmaiden ( 1 turn ) since everything else is only giving a -2 to the armor
2) how the hell is he supposed to deal with high toughness monsters ? He has prince , bolt throwers ( " only " S6 ) , handmaiden ( only S 5 ) and then ? He uses 2 blocks of infantry were the highest strenght is 4
3) how in the world is he supposed to deal with high toughness heavy armored things ?
Since he beat so many WoC list he must have a way to deal with that since they have all the thing stated above ( hellcannon , chimeras , skullcrushers , demon princes ... )
4) how do you deal with magic heavy armies ? I know he has BoH but he even has a scroll caddy without a scroll !!!! Is the channeling staff so useful ?
5) how does he deploy ?
My thoughts are : the mage has the ring , therefore he can only lower the ws by one level and so i would think it goes into phoenix guards , but at the same time i thought that even the prince would go in the phoenix guards , but he only have a 5++ ws , so logically speaking he should need 2 high magic spell from the archmage , which has got the 4++ so he really need only one . The better thing to do seems : phoenix guards + bsb and mage . what about prince and archmage ? Are they really going with spears ? Am i missing something ? If they have the flaming banner how can the prince deal with the 2++ versus fire most lords have ? And about the spears themselves . Ok they are not useles , they have Ws 4 and asf , but only S3 ! I used them with wildform or mindrazor and they became quite good , but what are they doing there ?
In the end there's the handmaiden that i think should go with sisters , but then they can't pick different targets sometimes overdoing .
I'm really confused :shock:
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#13 Post by Gandalf_82 »

Interesting list that is for sure! Well done that man. =D>
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#14 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I will try to get army lists of his opponents so that the match ups can be discussed with greater details. I also hope that our own Hinge will add some insider's view on the even in general and the end results in particular.

Game 1 - Dan Lindley

Sorcerer Lord, Level 4, Mark of Tzeentch, Lore of Tzeentch, Disc, Enchanted Shield, Tali of Preservation, OTS, Familiar


Exalted Hero, Tzeentch, GW, BSB, Daemonic Mount, Barding, Armour of Destiny, Scaled Skin

18 Warriors, Mark of Tzeentch; Shield, Musician, Standard, Blasted Standard

Core Chariot, Khorne
Core Chariot, Khorne

5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds

5 Hellstriders,Standard, Musician
6 Hellstriders,Standard, Musician

6 Knights, Standard, Musician, Lances, Banner of Eternal Flame

4 Skullcrushers, FC, Ensorcelled Weapons, Gleaming Pennant

Shaggoth, GW

Spawn

Comp Score: 11.2
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#15 Post by Shining wolf »

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Re: HE win US Masters!

#16 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Game 2 - Corey Reynolds

Dreadlord, The Black Amulet; Ogre Blade; Dark Steed; Brace of Repeater Hand Bows; Shield; SDC, Heavy Armour;

Sorceress Beasts, LEVEL 3, Dark Steed, Ring of Hotek, Dispel Scroll

Master, BSB, Talisman of Endurance, Dark Steed, Heavy Armor, Lance, Brace of Xbows, SDC, Shield

Master, Dark Steed, Lance, Heavy Armor, Shield, Brace of Xbows, SDC, Dawnstone

Master, Cold One; great weapon; heavy armour; SDC, Dragonbane Gem

Master, Cold One; great weapon; heavy armour; SDC


Master Cold One; great weapon; heavy armour; SDC

13 Dark Riders, FC, XBows

13 Witch Elves, Musician, Standard, Razor Standard
12 Witch Elves

RBT
RBT
RBT

5 Harpies
5 Harpies
8 Warlocks
6 Warlocks

Comp Score 9.7
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#17 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Game 3 - Fred Whitney

Herald of Tzeentch, BSB, LEVEL 2, Banner of Eternal Flame

Herald of Tzeentch, LEVEL 2

28 Bloodletters, FC, Banner of Swiftness

12 Bloodletters, FC

6 Flamers Champ

6 Flamers Champ

4 Flamers Champ

4 Bloodcrushers Musician, Standard

5 Furies Tzeentch

3 Screamers

Soulgrinder Tzeentch

Cannon

Comp Score 16.7
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#18 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Game 4 - Collins Mullen

Chaos Lord Nurgle, Barded Chaos Steed, Armor of Destiny, Scaly Skin, OTS, Dragonhelm, Obsideon Amu, GW

Exalted Hero, BSB, Nurgle, Barded Daemonic Steed, Talisman of Preservation, GW, Dragonbane Gem

Sorcerer, Slaanesh, LEVEL 2, Steed of Slaanesh, Familiar, Enchanted Shield

Sorcerer, Slaanesh, Steed of Slaanesh, Dispel Scroll, LEVEL 1

5 Warhounds Vanguard

5 Warhounds Vanguard

5 Horsemen Slaanesh, Flails, Musician

5 Horsemen Slaanesh, Flails, Musician

18 Forsaken, Slaanesh

6 Knights, Nurgle, Ensorcelled, FC, Gleaming Pennant
6 Knights, Nurgle, Ensorcelled, FC, Flaming Banner
3 Skullcrushers, Ensorcelled Weapons, Musician, Standard

Comp Score: 14.4
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#19 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Game 5 - Nick Hall

Chaos Lord, Tzeentch, Great Weapon, Chaos Steed, Armor of Destiny, Obsidian Lodestone, Potion of Foollhardiness

Sorcerer Lord, LEVEL 3, Endhanted Shield, Scroll of Shielding

Exalted Hero, BSB, Daemonic Mount, Barding, GW, Talisman of Preservation

Exalted Hero, Tzeentch, GW, Daemonic Mount, Dragonhelm, Talisman of Endurance, 3rd Eye

Sorcerer, Charmed Shield, Scroll, LEVEL 1, Fire

12 Forsaken Mark of SLaanesh

10 Marauders Slaanesh, FC

10 Marauders Slaanesh, FC

10 Marauders Slaanesh, FC

5 Horsemen Slaanesh, Standard

5 Warhounds

8 Knights, FC, Blasted Standard, Lances

Shaggoth AHW

Comp Score: 14.9
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#20 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Not sure how much it matters but he played:

Game 1 - Table 6 - first round does not matter rally
Game 2 - Table 20 - it seems they didn't assign the tables according to the scores though at this stage
Game 3 - Table 13 - from now on it is by the score
Game 4 - Table 7
Game 5 - Table 3

All the players that participated in that tournament had to earn their place there. hence, no weak opponents. Match ups always matter but easier/preferred =/= easy. And no, that does not mean all results would be a draw, since, obviously, there are other factors that contribute to the end score. But we all know it, right? 8)

As I said, the guy did a great job. I am really happy for him. His list is not weak but is not an obvious winner. I might have missed that but in all the podcasts the TO's of the tournament did I don't think he was considered the contender. Yes, would be great to hear from him personally!

@ Shining Wolf

Thanks for kind words! I will try to address your questions in due time! :)

P.S. I wonder what would be the comments if I didn't post his match ups first :D
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#21 Post by Ferny »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:His list is not weak but is not an obvious winner.
I keep looking at it and trying to work out how it would run. I don't have a problem with any of it (even the spears, although I'm curious about them)...it just looks very light on the ground due to having invested so many points in characters...and then they're not what you'd expect either. Shooting looks strong but not overwhelming. Redirectors look solid. Ability to eat up RnF looks good. But ability to win combat vs tough/armoured stuff looks like it's relying on, well, ranged + prince.

You run an atypical list Swordmaster, but at least (especially through following your batreps) I can visualise how it fits together. This one I don't really understand...so I'm looking forward to seeing more. Obviously the player matters plenty, but they work with the tools they've got, and they choose the toolset, so very curious :D.

I re-read Furion's bowline thread recently and it had lots of us (before my time, but the collective us) scratching our heads - might this be the next breakthrough list? I don't see it, but then that'd be the beauty of a break out list ;).

I'm not familiar with Swedish comp, does that encourage this sort of build/discourage 'typical' builds?
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#22 Post by Tethlis »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: All the players that participated in that tournament had to earn their place there. hence, no weak opponents. Match ups always matter but easier/preferred =/= easy. And no, that does not mean all results would be a draw, since, obviously, there are other factors that contribute to the end score. But we all know it, right? 8)
I never said "easy matchups", bud. I said "easier" ;). For example, no matter who is at the helm, I'd feel a lot more comfortable fighting those Daemon and Warrior lists than I would fighting that Dark Elf list.
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#23 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

@ Ferny

Swedish, from my experience, encourages more variety and taking less obvious choices. The armies are still powerful but might not have all the best things together. Often people realize the things they brought as a concession are actually far better than they thought.

At US Masters they used 0-20 brackets for the comp which simply covers all armies. It was unusual as more often TO's set a narrower bracket. For example, AUS Masters had 10-14.

However, for every point of difference softer army got 100VP extra, up to 800VP. So If you had the army with, say, 14 comp and fought against the one with comp 6 or less, then you were starting with 800VP bonus. Pretty steep if you ask me.

The interesting thing was that the armies ranged from very low comp to very high. Top 10 finished with scores between 8 and 11.5

@ Tethlis

Sure! But other than bribing the TO's I don't know how he ensured he had so many WoC opponents, provided that was his preferred much up :)
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#24 Post by John Rainbow »

I've played Justin before (narrow loss) and I might see him again in a few weeks at a tourny. He also played this list when I faced him in a minimal comp environment so I know he is pretty experienced with it - which always helps. I've also played a few others who were there and know how good some of them are too so this is a fantastic achievement!

When I played Justin the L4 went in the PG with the Prince and the Handmaiden went in the Sisters (obvious choice) although I guess this could change game to game. The list is surprisingly solid and doesn't look to have many poor match-ups.
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#25 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi John!

Do you think you could contact him and convince him to tell his tale of awesomeness on this forum? That would have been great to have first hand report! :)

Cheers!
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#26 Post by Eirik »

If there's a large enough tournament, you expect that some people will get preferred matches more often. The people who did the very best probably had some luck on their side. Does that take anything away from what this player accomplished? Maybe. I think it takes away from any tournament victory. I don't think such a tournament is a reliable way of finding "who's the best player in the room". I think a tournament rather picks one lucky player out of some of the very top players in the room.

I think we'd all be more impressed if he'd gone up against "tougher" matches for his list. We're looking at a talented player who used a novel list in an impressive way, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with critiquing the list or imagining what other factors led to the victory. As an obtuse and completely hypothetical example, maybe this list is just crap against dwarfs/ogres/darkelves/lizards. We don't have any real way of knowing from the data here. Maybe it's great against all of them and will herald a new era of High Elf tactics. I think we should find out more.

I mean, I'm a novice and if you'd shown me this list 20 minutes ago, I'd have concluded that you weren't a serious player. So that shows what I know. I just hope that better minds than me will analyze this list and tournament with full scrutiny, and not hold back just out of respect. I think that picking this strategy to pieces could be a good learning experience.
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#27 Post by Dalamar »

Justin's in the same club as I am. This is the list he plays pretty much every time. He modified it for the swedish comp by removing a couple models from his units to drop them into lower comp bracket. Swapped noble for sea helm for the same reason.
These minor changes upped his comp by about 3 full points (showing the deficiencies of the system).

He's a really good player, consistently scoring in top 5 (or better) at tournaments.

He's not much of a forum poster but I should see him on wednesday.
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#28 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

@ Eirik

While luck is an important factor (it is a game of dice after all) I think it is unfair to narrow down the somebody's success just to that. Getting to Masters has nothing to do with it, really. And even more so in the case of US Masters with much greater pool of the players.

Imagine you win a tournament of any type and then be simply called lucky by other players.

And while there is nothing wrong in critiquing any army list, why is it the first thing you want to do? Why not simply start with congratulating the guy who won a prestigious event with the army we all like? I really don't get it. :?

@ Dalamar

Excellent! I really hope you will get some more info for us but first, please congratulate Justin for a great result!

Cheers!
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#29 Post by John Rainbow »

As I said I bump into Justin from time to time and he is consistently a good tournament player - usually one of the top ranking HE players at any event. I know he goes to a lot of tournies in the NE USA and plays this kind of list a lot. We all know that experience is a huge advantage and that a better general can do more with a lesser list so to speak. It might also be a case of playing with something that fits a certain playstyle that you like. For instance, I tend to look at Seredain's list and don't always see what it is all about but he consistently does well with it against lists you wouldn't necessarily expect it to. It really is all about experience and playing with something you know the absolute ins and outs of.
Jimmy
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Re: HE win US Masters!

#30 Post by Jimmy »

That would be an incredible asset to be able to get another glimpse into another High Elves master.

I love how unsuspecting the list is and of course that it doesn't contain the usual new and shiny toys. Very inspiring.
Nec Sorte Nec Fato - Neither By Chance Nor Fate

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