High Magic

[Rabidnid]

What do you guys think about using Hand of Glory to boost a bolt thrower's BS? Could provide some laser guided bolts to reliably soften up high priority targets early in game.

I think 20 to 30 archers with BS 6/7 is a much better idea.

[Mrfantastical]

I've played a few games with new book, and I like the High Lore. I tend to run a WL block, so High Lore makes this block something my opponents avoid at all cost until they can't avoid any longer.

FYI: I usually run a lvl 4 with BoH, and have an annointed with me in my combat block.

What I've found is that you want as many Hex/Augments out of the lore on your mage as possible, because all of those spells can be 1 diced. BoH, Lileath's Blessing, and low initial casting cost is huge for us. Every game I've played so far I've always been able to successfully cast at least 2 spells a turn (which translates to a 4++ Ward in my Annointed WL Block). For me the goal each magic phase isn't to have a game breaking spell go off, the goal is to get to a 3++ Ward save on my combat block. If I were to rank the aug/hex spells on effectiveness for this build it would go:

1: Hand of Glory
2: Walk between worlds
3: Drain Magic
4: Apotheosis

I don't have the numbers, but I'd say that majority of the time you'll be able to get 3 spells of this type.

The non-hex/aug spells are good too (except for tempest, absolutely worthless), however since my mage goes into my combat block the non-hex/aug spells are used mainly to drain DD/Dispel Scroll. Out of all of the non-hex/aug spells, Soul Quench has been the best, because of it's low casting cost.

Fiery Convocation, and Arcane Unforging are nice, but I've never been able to get them off because my opponent's will save up DD/scroll to stop them. Also these 2 spell require extra dice to cast, and most of the time my dice are tied into the hex/aug spells.

My next plan is to run a Lvl 2 High mage with a unit of PG, along with my WL Block.

[Prince of Spires]

Can you explain the logic of having a lvl4 mage in a combat block to me? I've read about more people doing it and so far, I don't real get it yet.

Yes, a 3+ wardsave is nice to have on a combat block. But even with a 3+ wardsave the mage will die rather fast against almost anything the combat block actually wants to go up against. And that is ignoring the fact that it only takes one bad magic phase and a scroll to have no save at all on the mage.

Rod

[cptcosmic]

I agree with Rod, it is too risky imho. the 3+ ward translates into 5 total wounds, not much on a T3 no AS model

[Siegfried VII]

If you use a horde formation and keep the Archmage in one of the edges of the unit then you can minimize the hits your enemy will be able to direct at him and even avoid combat alltogether if the enemy unit has smaller frontage. On top of that if you have Apotheosis you can even heal your character.

I'm not sure I will try it at all, but it can be a viable strategy if not a bit risky...

[Prince of Spires]

I'm not realy a fan of horde formations for elves, so that may explain part of it. But I can imagine that having only 1 model in B2B (so something like 4 attacks max from normal infantry/cavalry) helps mitigate the problem a bit.

But that very quickly becomes a very expensive block. For horde of WL + lvl4 + annoited you're looking at 1000+ points. Not something I would run. This also makes the unit your premier combat unit. It should see something like 3 combats in the game to be worth it as combat block, and even with only file in B2B that is a lot of attacks to suffer.

And he's still vulnerable to combo-charges, even at the edge of the unit. Charge a unit of 7 wide SM in with a WLC and an eagle to the flank where the mage is and you have a decent chance of taking out the mage. Yes, a lot of points. But worth it when being able to take out a lvl 4 HE mage I feel.

And, as said, the high magic ward save is by no means a given. If you're up against a scroll it only takes an average roll on the winds of magic to not get any spells through / only 1 spell. And it becomes even worse against armies with decent magic defence.

In a combat support unit I can see him working (though I probably wouldn't run him in one unless I had no choice). Since you should be able to keep him out of the worst combats without suffering too much he has a decent chance to survive. But in a main combat unit I think he has the same issue as an archmage on dragon: conflicting roles.

Rod

[Siegfried VII]

I'm not realy a fan of horde formations for elves, so that may explain part of it. But I can imagine that having only 1 model in B2B (so something like 4 attacks max from normal infantry/cavalry) helps mitigate the problem a bit.

But that very quickly becomes a very expensive block. For horde of WL + lvl4 + annoited you're looking at 1000+ points. Not something I would run. This also makes the unit your premier combat unit. It should see something like 3 combats in the game to be worth it as combat block, and even with only file in B2B that is a lot of attacks to suffer.

And he's still vulnerable to combo-charges, even at the edge of the unit. Charge a unit of 7 wide SM in with a WLC and an eagle to the flank where the mage is and you have a decent chance of taking out the mage. Yes, a lot of points. But worth it when being able to take out a lvl 4 HE mage I feel.

And, as said, the high magic ward save is by no means a given. If you're up against a scroll it only takes an average roll on the winds of magic to not get any spells through / only 1 spell. And it becomes even worse against armies with decent magic defence.

In a combat support unit I can see him working (though I probably wouldn't run him in one unless I had no choice). Since you should be able to keep him out of the worst combats without suffering too much he has a decent chance to survive. But in a main combat unit I think he has the same issue as an archmage on dragon: conflicting roles.

Rod

I mostly agree with what you say and that is the reason I haven't tried it yet. I just pointed out the thought behind the mind of the guys willing to make such a thing work.

Regarding the horde formations I must say that in the past year I have been using them for my Elite Infantry all too often.

The reason is that especially when facing armies with template warmachines having your unit in 10x3 formation (even if you don't have 30 models in the unit) can save you hide. Last game I tried running my 26ish White Lions on 7x4 formation and all it took was 1 hit from the Hellcannon and the unit was crippled as he hit 21ish models in one shot. Have I used a horde formation he would only hit 15 at the most...

[edzig]

After a few games with and against High Elves I've joined the camp that thinks High Magic is best on a support mage.

When I first read through the Lore I thought it looked great, and I still love the lore attribute (I have no problem with giving the ward to the Mage bunker), but the spells do not reliably give you what you need when you need it (i.e. in crucial combats).

Seen from the other side of the table, any kind of Elves on Shadow is always scary, High Elves on High is more of a 'shrug'. I'd thought of taking two level 4s (Shadow with the Book; High with a scroll), but it's overkill without any power dice generation. So it'll be Level 4 Shadow, Level 2 High for the next several games.

[Mrfantastical]

Can you explain the logic of having a lvl4 mage in a combat block to me? I've read about more people doing it and so far, I don't real get it yet.

Yes, a 3+ wardsave is nice to have on a combat block. But even with a 3+ wardsave the mage will die rather fast against almost anything the combat block actually wants to go up against. And that is ignoring the fact that it only takes one bad magic phase and a scroll to have no save at all on the mage.

Rod

I guess it all depends on what your Mage is kitted with, where he is in the unit and what other threat you have (both in the combat block and in the rest of the build).

For my Mage I like giving him BoH, fencers blades, and golden crown. I actually don't like giving him talisman of pres, because you are right that a 3+ ward save isn't good enough by itself. The fencers blades, and crown provide survivability, the Anointed gives him a 6+ ward. All I have to do then is control my magic phase. All you need is 3 successful casts and your Mage has a 3+ ward. I've been thinking of giving my Anointed Khaines Ring just so I have 5 spells to work with.

As for placement in the unit, I usually keep him in a corner to limit his involvement in combat.

So far survivability hasn't been an issue with so much offense output in the WL block I've completely wiped units before they had a chance to even make their first attack (Hand of Glory helps a lot).

I'm not saying I'm a expert (I'm new to elves altogether), so I'm trying out everything and so far this build/tactic has been good with High Magic.

[Scalenex1]

The one clear blind spot to work around a Banner of the World Dragon is to use buffs and hexes. Drain magic removes buffs and hexes.

Drain Magic is a signature spell. I'd say if you use the ueber banner one should always take at least a level one High mage.

[Gondarion]

As I've said before, which lore to take it depends on your approach. High Magic is a strategic lore, it is about dictating terms, whittling the enemy down and setting up future decisions. Its merits are preemptive, whereas the most useful common lores for high elves, such as Lore of Shadows, are for attempting to pull your ass out of the fire in one fell swoop, or for one drastic game changing spell one way or another. I do think the quality of High Magic, in the hands of a master general, will prove greater than it appears on paper if coordinated properly with list construction (although not knowing which spells you get could prove problematic; apotheosis, for instance, is very list dependent). I myself am a pretty bad general, so I'm somewhat receptive to the arguments about other lores being objectively better, I definitely like the idea of combining the Book of Hoeth with some of the more expensive lores to excellent effect, with a L2 High Mage as support. I think the developers wanted High Magic to be very good, but not to take away any reason to take the more specialized common lores, which is why it is more about compounding High elf strengths than mitigatingew weaknesses. But I think if you have a detailed plan for your army that revolves around setting up the later game, High Magic may be more than it appears to be. Just a thought.

[JudgeSmails]

Guess I am the crazy one in the bunch, but I like High Magic.

Lore Attribute can definitely be used with great purpose. Depending on your list, I would rank it as a top attribute.
Drain Magic - Oh that hex/buff you had for last round of CC, guess what, it is gone. Can really make opponents think twice before planning a charge.
Soul Quench - 4D6 S4 hits, needing an 11 on the dice (with a reroll). Where do I sign up?
Apotheosis - Regain D3 wounds with 2 dice. Not so worried about characters in CC anymore.
Hand Of Glory - Get those RBTs or Archers hitting on 2's or 3's.
Walk Between Worlds - Free extra 10 inches of ethereal movement. Don't think that can dramatically alter a game plan?
Tempest - Not huge damage, but -1 to hit will make an opponent think twice about charging (maybe even -2 now due to Hand of Glory).
Arcane Unforgiving - Hate the random part, but love targeting low armor save characters.
Fiery Convocation - RIP, great on high volume units. Let me hit that horde of yours with this, then another 4D6 S4 hits.

I know I am in the minority and prepared for the onslaught of criticism. I have taken High in most of the games I have played and not been disappointed. To each their own

[Gondarion]

The Tempest is the one poorly designed spell in the lore, in my view. I don't know what the developers were trying to accomplish with that one. As good as some of the other spells can be, I do think it is the new Walk Between Worlds that makes this lore really good, without it it wouldn't be at that level.

[JudgeSmails]

The Tempest is the one poorly designed spell in the lore, in my view. I don't know what the developers were trying to accomplish with that one. As good as some of the other spells can be, I do think it is the new Walk Between Worlds that makes this lore really good, without it it wouldn't be at that level.

Definitely not a tier 1 spell. However, I do believe it has its uses if well planned and played. You can lure a unit into a charging position then hit them with this. Putting them at -1 to hit will definitely make them re-think their charge in the following turn. If well planned, that can allow you to turn what looked like an appealing position to your opponent into a disadvantage.

While not a faceroll spell, I still think this can be used effectively.

[Eirik]

The Tempest is the one poorly designed spell in the lore, in my view. I don't know what the developers were trying to accomplish with that one. As good as some of the other spells can be, I do think it is the new Walk Between Worlds that makes this lore really good, without it it wouldn't be at that level.

Definitely not a tier 1 spell. However, I do believe it has its uses if well planned and played. You can lure a unit into a charging position then hit them with this. Putting them at -1 to hit will definitely make them re-think their charge in the following turn. If well planned, that can allow you to turn what looked like an appealing position to your opponent into a disadvantage.

While not a faceroll spell, I still think this can be used effectively.

You can put it somewhere that it might conveniently scatter into a combat between your enemy and a BotWD unit. If it does, then the unit will likely shrug off the S3 wounds thanks to the 2++ ward. Your opponent will likely hit at -1 and you likely won't. Of course, this can go horribly wrong, kind of like night goblin nets.

[Gondarion]

Thats a hell of a lot for -1 to hit. It can be very good against big hordes of goblins and the like, but so is everything else in the army. I think the only situation it is really worth it is against big units of elves, especially those with missile weapons.

[Prince of Spires]

The Tempest is the one poorly designed spell in the lore, in my view. I don't know what the developers were trying to accomplish with that one. As good as some of the other spells can be, I do think it is the new Walk Between Worlds that makes this lore really good, without it it wouldn't be at that level.

Dropping it in the middle of a dwarven gunline castle could be fun.

But overall it seems a bit like they stuffed too much into that single spell which gives it a lot of conflicting roles. It's a S3 large template, which could be fun. But it's also an unreliable hex (you don't want hexes that scatter or to be direct damage). And it's some protection against shooting.

All in all, the large template itself is pretty reliable, since it only scatters D6 instead of 2D6 like most other large template spells.

On the other hand, for 11 to cast, you could ask yourself if you'd not rather have Comet of casandora for 12 for higher S, or pit which doesn't allow saves for 14 or flame cage for 11 which initially does fewer hits, but offers a fair bit of board control.

Rod

[SpellArcher]

High Elves on High is more of a 'shrug'

Shadow is a wham bam, thank you maam kind of a Lore. I suspected I'd need it to make my Core infantry work with the new book and the experience of guys like HERO and Tethlis seems to bear this out. Because S3 is nowhere near enough to register and Shadow gives it major boosts. But I prefer lores like Metal and Beasts where you have spells like Encanted Blades and Wildform that enhance stuff more subtly and cheaply. To do that effectively though, you need something more than S3 base to start from.

High used to be a really good utility Lore because with Banner of Sorcery and the low casting costs (plus the heavy early-game presence of spells like Flames and Vaul's) you could overwhelm the enemy's defence and get a stream of Shields, Curses, Furies etc through. With a combined arms build, that was very effective. The trick was to have significant shooting (so Curse made a difference) and lots of high strength re-rolling attacks in the list so you didn't have to rely on buffs/hexes.

Loss of BoS, advent of the Book, MM spam potential and the changed support spells make the new Lore work differently (for example the loss of Curse is big). I didn't like the look of it because the route to enhancing various elements of your army is more complex now, one reason I'm playing Wood Elves currently. But...Seredain rates it. So I may revisit it.

[cptcosmic]

not everyone runs PG, spears and archers where shadow shines.

some people also use SH with prince + reavers in core and SM + WL in special. those lists do not need shadow and are better served with something else.

the HE lore is definately a good one and synergise well with BoH due to low casting values. I can get spells off even with low winds of magic roll. All the spells are usefull for a HE army if you have the units that synergise well with the spell effects.

I also changed my mind about the combat wardmage. 3+ ward, heal and buff from high lore makes him fairly durable, just make sure he doesnt get hit by something too powerful.

[Gamu]

Can you explain the logic of having a lvl4 mage in a combat block to me? I've read about more people doing it and so far, I don't real get it yet.

Yes, a 3+ wardsave is nice to have on a combat block. But even with a 3+ wardsave the mage will die rather fast against almost anything the combat block actually wants to go up against. And that is ignoring the fact that it only takes one bad magic phase and a scroll to have no save at all on the mage.

Rod

Alarielle in an horde of white lions with banner of world dragon, in the edge of the unit, can survive pretty well. Vs hordes she takes a maximum of 6 attacks per turn, hitting on 4's.

Healing one wound each turn, 5+ minimum ward that stacks with high magic, and ws6, means she can survive pretty well. The posibility of recast one spell somewhat minimizes the problem of high magic in the late stages of the game once you get to combat: not many hexes/augments.

I think that with her special abilities she might be the only one lv4 high magic caster that we will see in competitive environment.

High magic can be very good in the early stages of the game, you really want two spells: walk, and convocation. With 3-4 RBT being cheaper, and maidens, we can handle monsters, and some 1+ cavalry. White lions also help if you position them with walk between worlds. On the other hand, steadfast hordes of cheap troops might be a problem now that we don`t have rerrolls to hit. Convocation is pure gold here.

[Deris87]

The one thing this discussion of High magic has convinced me of, is that it's perfect for the Siege scenario out of Blood in the Badlands--which I may be playing in upcoming rounds of a campaign. I can not only give my Archmage Loremaster, I can throw him in with a unit of Phoenix Guard to boost their save and safely just hold him back from the assault party. Further, since enemy units have to back off at the end of a building assault, each magic phase I'm free to try and cast Fiery Convocation and Tempest on the undead hordes I expect to be facing, or Arcane Unforging on the Vampire Lord.

[GooberNumber9]

My last couple of games I ran a Lvl 2 High in a block of 20 Phoenix Guard and they pretty much spent all of both games with a 3+ ward, so that was pretty cool. Here's how each spell has fared in my games:

Drain Magic - I've only taken this once, but one thing I noticed quickly is that 7 to cast this is a less than the required 2nd turn dispel result for a lot of RiP spells, plus you get the lore attribute. So I like it.
Soul Quench - The only units that have ever been in range of this spell have also been in combat or outside of the mage's forward arc. I've never had a valid target yet.
Apotheosis - I wish I rolled this a lot more because it would be awesome for keeping Phoenixes alive... athough they haven't needed the help so far.
Hand Of Glory - My favorite spell by far. Every game I've rolled it I've used it multiple times and it's always helped.
Walk Between Worlds - I haven't been able to make this help me yet. Only rolled it a couple times though.
Tempest - Blah.
Arcane Unforgiving - Not bad, casting cost is high for a Lvl 2 but I did take away a magic weapon yesterday.
Fiery Convocation - Between this being a high priority for enemies to dispel and having a high casting cost, I've never successfully cast this spell despite numerous attempts. I have a friend who got this off yesterday on a unit of Saurus and it was a game-changer.

All that in mind, if I could only have one caster in an army, it would probably be a Loremaster of Hoeth, who has done very well for me. There's always a very useful spell available and he can do some serious damage in combat. High Magic in some ways is starting to feel not quite as good as the last book. If Soul Quench either had a 24" range or could be boosted to 36" or something, it would improve the lore a huge amount.

[Mrfantastical]

I just played a game against Skaven (you know that broken army) with 2 High mages.

What I had:

*Lvl 4 in a unit of white lions w/ BotWD (apotheosis, hand of glory, walk between worlds, drain magic)
*lvl 2 in a unit Phoenix Guard (drain magic, arcane unforging)

To summarize the game, my Phoenix Guard had a 3+ ward almost the entire game and took the bulk of the skaven shooting. The PG only lost 7 models as they marched up the field. My White Lions only lost only one model until they got into combat. Once both units got into combat, the rats were meat for the grinder.

I like our lore a lot.

[Stormie]

That's very interesting- did the Lions have BotWD as well? Must've been painful for him if he had to shoot at units with a 3/2+ ward save all game

[Mrfantastical]

That's very interesting- did the Lions have BotWD as well? Must've been painful for him if he had to shoot at units with a 3/2+ ward save all game

Yes the white lions had, "the Banner". I'm pretty sure that's why my opp focused on the PG because would be easier to wound then the white lions.

[SpellArcher]

Drain Magic - I've only taken this once, but one thing I noticed quickly is that 7 to cast this is a less than the required 2nd turn dispel result for a lot of RiP spells, plus you get the lore attribute. So I like it.Soul Quench - The only units that have ever been in range of this spell have also been in combat or outside of the mage's forward arc. I've never had a valid target yet.

Slight problem with casting Drain to get rid of an enemy spell is that he can prioritize dispelling it, whereas chucking PD at a RIP spell is pretty reliable, albeit it hurts the phase.

In general I reckon 18" is Ok for Augments but you want 24" for offensive spells. But I guess if you have the caster in a combat unit (2nd rank or maybe World Dragon plus High Magic) this is less of a problem.

[Mrfantastical]

Drain Magic - I've only taken this once, but one thing I noticed quickly is that 7 to cast this is a less than the required 2nd turn dispel result for a lot of RiP spells, plus you get the lore attribute. So I like it.Soul Quench - The only units that have ever been in range of this spell have also been in combat or outside of the mage's forward arc. I've never had a valid target yet.

Slight problem with casting Drain to get rid of an enemy spell is that he can prioritize dispelling it, whereas chucking PD at a RIP spell is pretty reliable, albeit it hurts the phase.

In general I reckon 18" is Ok for Augments but you want 24" for offensive spells. But I guess if you have the caster in a combat unit (2nd rank or maybe World Dragon plus High Magic) this is less of a problem.

I had this situation come up, luckily I had a second Mage with drain magic. My first Mage (lvl4 w/ Book of Hoeth), one diced drain magic on a skaven "death frenzy" spell. My opponent threw 3 Dispel dice to stop it, which he did. Later in the phase when my opp was out of DD my 2nd Mage cast drain magic again on the Death Frenzied unit, and got it off.

[SpellArcher]

Nice!



I can see the Skaven player not being desperate to burn a scroll on Drain.

[Mrfantastical]

The high lore has several spells that are good at drawing out dispel scrolls:

*Arcane Unforgiving - no one wants to loose a magic item
*walk between worlds - giving a combat block an extra 10-20" of movement isn't pleasant
*hand of glory - if played early in the game the movement buff, is huge.
*fiery convocation - is just plain nasty.

So far I haven't had a problem with my opp using their dispel scroll early in the game.

[Atlantic]

I've run it a few times. I am going to switch to Lore of Life.

Don't get me wrong, the lore is pretty good, but it is not a game changer.

The way I look at it (after experimentation):
Lifebloom > Shield of Saphery (you have to repeatedly cast spells to get the most out of shield, whereas wounds back are wounds back)
Earthblood > Soul Quench & < Drain Magic (the ability to remove hexes & Augments is pretty nice - Soul Quench is limited by range)
Lifebloom > Apotheosis (and you don't have to roll to get it!)
Awakening of the Wood > Soul Quench - if Throne is in play
Flesh to Stone > Hand of Glory (game changer, period)
Shield of Thorns is ok as useful as Hand of Glory if locked in combat - Throne makes it deadlier
Regrowth - you grow elves back! The perfect compliment to a high cost low model count army
Dwellers is one of the most obscenely powerful spells in the game.

If you are packing the book of hoeth, the cast values on most of these spells is just right. You can also throw 6 dice at dwellers all day and not fear the explosion of the BotWD is in play.