Furion's thoughts on the new armybook and cost of units

[Furion]

Below is the list of units that I'll most likely never field, due to them being highly overpriced:
Handmaiden of the Everqueen - 95pts. Great hero, great utility, great concept. Should be 50 pts though, which makes her being overpriced twice.
Lother Sea Helm. 100pts. Another great concept. With loss in stats, he should be on par with noble. The extra ability although useful is not something you can't live without. Should be down to 70.
Dragon Princes. 2+ save, S3. They are useless in current metagame. Since they're special, they should be like 24 pts, not 29.
Skycutter. Considering only option with Bolt Thrower, becouse without BT, Tiranoc is simply better. 120 pts for T4 and save 4+ is laughable. BT hitting on 4+ / 5+ with S5 is nothing compared to the cost. Should be 95 pts with BT. Otherwise they lose when picking between them and the Tiranocs.
Lion Chariot. No chariot with T4 should be worth over a 100. This one is 120. Would go for 95pts aswell.
Swordmasters. Now worse than ever. Even small units (7-14 models) have lost it's utility. Big units are only worse. Should be 11pts to make them considered between Phoenix Guard / White Lions.
Shadow Warriors. Never will find points for them. Should be 11pts.

List of things that I'll possibly field, but still are overpriced:
Annointed of Assurian. Quite durable, no option to ride a horse and only 3 attacks. That's definately not 210 when considered Prince being 140. With characters there is a common approach to max armour save over ward save, his cost doesn't justify it. Oh, and he is also Immune to Psychology which with high LD army is pretty, pretty bad. Don't forget LD9. Kitted on phoenix he is cost-wise getting close to a dragon lords while offering not a fraction of that utility. He should be 165.
Loremaster. With ASF you kill all fasts with archers / spears anyway. 3S6 attacks are nothing when you want to find a decent enemy. Also, he will possibly be running an arcane item, so that leaves him with bad armour save anyway, a one that he can't go into combat. With no ability to generate any extra power dice, his game-wise utility is close to an archmage, not to mention defensive options. Should be 195 instead of 230.
Phoenix Guard but only by a tiny amount. 14pts for them would make a good call to chose between Swords for 11, Lions for 13.

List of things I find well priced:
Archmage, Prince, Noble, Mage, White Lions, Tiranoc Chariots, Rare choices

Core Units which are so bad I've decided to give them their own paragraph:
Bad as always, only difference being that there is still a bit more utility in them.
Silver Helms don't impress anyone. S3 and save 2+ is nothing in current state of the game. Overpriced by 3pts, should be 20.
Archers dropped 1 point, which is roughly ok.
Spears now have even harder time being picked, with Archers being cheaper. Overpriced by 2 pts, should be 7.
Ellyrian Reavers. Why on Earth IoB sprues have bows and spears? I can add bow for 3 pts? Seriously? Should be 15 pts with bow for an extra point.
Lothern Seaguard. The unwanted child. I'll guess that GW needs like 3 more editions of warhammer to price them correctly. Overpriced by 2 pts.

List of Rare Units:
Bolt Throwers.
Great Eagles - but the design to give them bonuses for 5/10pts is the worst concept ever,
Sisters of Averlorn.
Flamespyre Phoenix - great utility, terrible statline, durable. Good concept, well executed.
Frostheart Phoenix - Still loses on break tests, however still offers quite a fist and good utility.

What are the problem in list building with High Elves?
Rare units are great, whatever combination. 25% allowance is the major problem.
600 pts of core units is still a pain. Although there is some room for variety, I feel like I am not choosing from one viable option to another, but from bad option to other bad option.
Scroll Carry. With Book of Hoeth being good and - although it is important to remember that this army has no Power Dice generating items - worth it's price, you need 2nd mage or another lord caster to just carry a scroll. That's like 110pts thrown away just for scroll.
From my calulations, depending on list, you are left with 500-700pts on special units, which is ok if you want to go for 1 big block of chaff and some support units. Yeah, support units. You don't really need them in special choices, since you have RBT, Phoenixes and Ellyrian Reavers. So you have to either drop something good (rare / hero slot) to be able to field 2 decent combat units.

The Banner of the World Dragon
Most important thing to remember is that White Lions and Swordmasters have lost their rerolls. This is extremly, extremly important to remember when considering the strength of "the Banner".

For starters, it works usually as Loremaster Cloak. Which is ok for 50pts.

Matchup analysis vs Daemons of Chaos:
Without Banner, DoCh player approach any way he wants, any time he wants from whatever angle he wants. DoCh player by definition wins all fights with Plague Beasts, Plague Drones or Plaguebearers, Bloodletters, Keeper of Secrets or Lord of Change, which is 90% cost-wise and 80% model-wise precentage of a daemon army. No High Elves unit is able to hold it.

With Banner, you have a combat block worth circa 450 pts which at least partially slows the DoCh player's advance. Funny thing - 6 Skullcrushers or 8 Demigryphs do exactly the same job. Also, they cost the same. Since several armies are entitled to have such unit, I see no reason to disallow HE to have such a unit vs certain matchup.

Matchup analysis vs Warriors of Chaos:
See above. Works exactly the same.

[ETC] What needs to be comped in new HE army?

Units:
Rare: All restrictions on Rare choices would be empty, since there are equal choices there. Also, with 600 pts you can't bend the roster to one area and another. 4 Bolt Throwers were allowed in 7th edition. With +100 I think it is fair to say that it was as viable option then as it is now. Becouse we didn't see any HE dominating the world with 4 RBT, personally I see no reason to limit them: especially now, when 2nd phoenix is a viable option.

Core: Archers has S3 without AP, and no amount of S3 is able to break the game. Reffer to Empire, OnG, Beastmen and others. While there is an option to have unlimited shooting, no army does so.

Special choices: SM and WL worse than before. PG slightly better, still doesn't make them even close to being strong. They're decent tops. Skycutters and Lion chariots are laughable option while compared to Tiranoc chariots.


When it comes to magic, lets discuss old HE for a while.
Annulian Crystal, Scroll and +5 to dispell was a typical combination. It was often backed up by Loremaster Cloak. While such amount of magic defense was considerable, it still wasn't enough when compared to whole army. T3, high cost per model and virtually no saves made army susceptible to any magic misslies, not to mention hard hitters. It's not like you have a unit of heavily armoured guys who can take heavy beating. Having 1 or top 2 combat units make army susceptible to hexes.

With new HE, the bonus +1 is gone for starters. With Lord choice being only able to carry the new Book of Hoeth, you have to have a guy to carry the scroll. He is worth 110 pts on its own, brings nothing to the army. Either way, it's a fair trade: you either play without scroll and with some rerolls, or you play with scroll, some rerolls but you have a useless 110pts character.

It is worth to note that becouse you get less Dispel Dice the reroll is not as effective in that phase. Sure, it brings something but Book of Hoeth shines when you cast the spells, especially on 3+ rerollable.

As for power dice go, there are no items which can generate extra power dice, AND there are no items which grant extra spells. With maximum of 2 mages (becouse any further wizard is unable to carry any decent arcane item) channeling extra dice will be scarce to a level, where comp on PD doesn't matter at all.

So lets sum it up a bit: HE still have T3, bad cavalry and virtually no save. This factor is the same in both editions. Magic defense is worse: stealing a power dice and adding a dispel die from Annulian was virtually priceless. On top of that all HE armies had a scroll and most of them either a second scroll or Loremaster Cloak. This is how Magic Defense looks for HE in 8th: it's just worse.

To sum up, my personal suggestion on what should comp on 8th HE today look is as follows:

High Elves (2400 pts)
Book of Hoeth 2PD
Banner of World Dragon 1DD

====================================

That's it for my analysis. Would love to hear your opinion, especially on light of how well priced things are in the new book.

Cheers
Furion

[Lord Anathir]

Great little review.

Agree on the bad units. DP might have a place in some sort of super cav bus with the 6+ basic ward save and a high mage stacking it, but just seems tough to execute.

Archmages, Nobles, Mages, White Lions are as you mentioned clear winners.

Core does have some decent utility. A block of helms can at least in theory guard against a flying character or some monster by denying thunderstomp. With certain buffs they could threaten. Reavers are good with spears only most likely, means you might not have to spend the full 100 on eagles and free up points for more rare. Archers are still ok for doing archery stuff. Spears will never make it in a serious list. Between a block of helms, 2 small units of archers and 2 units of reavers core should be filled.

"Core Units which are so bad I've decided to give them their own paragraph". hahaha.

Maybe only having the point for the single 1 WL block is a blessing. With 2 blocks, BOWD loses much of its potency, any spell good against a wl block that would normally be made unsuitable to cast with just the 1 protected block now just simply target the other one. Same with dwarf GTs, skaven templates, etc, etc.

Not sure on the birds yet. I think the fire bird combines nicely with a defensive list by being able to damage without having to get into combat. But the ice is more durable and could block some monstrous cav units depending. But without an armor save its still risky with no armor save and a weak ward.. still wounding on 6s. Thinking of hexwraiths and stuff like that I'll go with the fire one.

So I'm looking at something like..
lvl4 shadow
lvl4 high
(book, scroll, bound) between them, book on the shadow mage
bsb of some sorts, mounted with a good save gives me something to stop plug certain st4 units (crypt horrors) and st5 units if I'm desperate.
block of helms
2x small archers
2x reavers
horde of lions BOWD
4 rbt
fire bird (or secondary combat unit... but its nice to have something to draw some fire and kill hexes)
small maiden guard for some magical/flaming shooting.
eagle

should be ~2400

[Minsc]

@ Furion.

Wow, so much to comment on.
If I don't quote you on a specific unit, it's because I agree with you.
And please don't take this personal.

Handmaiden/Seahelm

I agree with you on the Handmaiden/Seahelm - They're cool but slightly overpriced. Both should be around 70-75pts. The handmaiden do come with a Bow of Averlorn @ BS7.

Dragon Princes. 2+ save, S3. They are useless in current metagame. Since they're special, they should be like 24 pts, not 29

I guess we have vastly different metas. No regular cavalry (not even Knights of the Bloodkeep) can charge unsupported, head first into infantry and hope to win.
At least DP's have re-rolls to hit vs almost everything in the game (characters not included), and M9...on heavy cavalry!
DP's are priced correct. You seem to want to have human prices on your units with elven statlines.

Add a Frost-phoenix and the DP will perform much better.

Skycutter. Considering only option with Bolt Thrower, becouse without BT, Tiranoc is simply better. 120 pts for T4 and save 4+ is laughable. BT hitting on 4+ / 5+ with S5 is nothing compared to the cost. Should be 95 pts with BT. Otherwise they lose when picking between them and the Tiranocs.

I agree and disagree. The Eagle Eye should have a rule so it doesn't get -1 to hit when moving, and it would be fine.
A regular Skycutter is priced correctly though. For 25 pts you get: +1 M, Flying (so it can pretty much charge whatever it want, including bunkers behind the enemy battle-line), a extra crewmember, a better armoursave, and a better mount (compare 2 ws3 s3 i3 attacks to 2 ws5 s4 i4)
If it was 95 with BT it would be what, 80 without? That's bad internal balance right there...

Lion Chariot. No chariot with T4 should be worth over a 100. This one is 120. Would go for 95pts aswell.

Overpriced, agree. Either 120 with T5 or 100 with T4.

Swordmasters. Now worse than ever......Should be 11pts to make them considered between Phoenix Guard / White Lions

Hold on now...
Do you have any idea of the cost for most infantry in 8th ed? Do you have any idea how insane Swordmasters would be for 11 pts each?
Besides, worse than "ever"? Worse than they where in 6th Ed.? Come on.

Shadow Warriors. Never will find points for them. Should be 11pts.

I like Shadow Warriors actually. You might not care about it, but they do have light armour by default now, so technically they are 13pts.
Still, 14 pts for a skirmishing, scouting BS5 longbow is hardly bad. WS5, I5 and ASF means that they can take care of themselves vs most chaff as well.
13 pts would be fine, 11 pts would be underpriced.

Annointed of Assurian. Quite durable, no option to ride a horse and only 3 attacks. That's definately not 210 when considered Prince being 140. With characters there is a common approach to max armour save over ward save, his cost doesn't justify it.

I dissagree. For 70 pts he looses one attack (-20), but gains a innate 4+ ward (+40), comes with heavy armour and a halberd (+10), MR2 (+30), Fear (+10), a 6+ ward to his unit (~ +30 pts? Probably more due to the High Magic lore-attribute) and while you don't like ItP, I do. I've failed to many panic checks even with Ld9 to disdain it. So +10 pts for that.
70+20-40-10-30-10-30-10 = -40. Look at that, he get's stuff for free. Hardly overpriced.

Kitted on phoenix he is cost-wise getting close to a dragon lords while offering not a fraction of that utility.

I assume you mean a Moon-dragon now, since a Prince on Stardragon would cost much more than a Anointed on a Phoenix.
I do think that the Anointed offers more utility than what a Prince on a (moon)Dragon does. Hell, put the AoA on a frost-phoenix and he would kill the Dragonprince, and he would offer much more utilty to the army once in combat. The Firephoenix can't really compare to a Dragon though, they are too different.

Phoenix Guard but only by a tiny amount. 14pts for them would make a good call to chose between Swords for 11, Lions for 13.

I wouldn't argue, but I don't think they need it. They did get better after all (MP benefits them greatly, and one spell from a high-mage means 3+ ward), and no-one seemed to complain about them in the last book.

Silver Helms don't impress anyone. S3 and save 2+ is nothing in current state of the game. Overpriced by 3pts, should be 20.

With shield? You want M9 core heavy-cav with re-roll to hit for 20 pts?....

Archers dropped 1 point, which is roughly ok.

Considering the fact that they are pretty much immune to chaff and can shoot (and fight!) in 3 ranks - Yeah, they are ok.

Spears now have even harder time being picked, with Archers being cheaper.

I'd say it's a though call between Archers and Spearmen. They fulfill different roles.
They are also our only core who can pick a magic banner.

Overpriced by 2 pts, should be 7.

Compare them to any other S3/T3 core infantry out there - they would be insanely underpriced.
Yet again, you can't ask for human prices when you have a elven statline + ASF.

Ellyrian Reavers. Why on Earth IoB sprues have bows and spears? I can add bow for 3 pts? Seriously? Should be 15 pts with bow for an extra point.

Just being core fast-cav makes them fine in my book.

They do seem correctly priced compared to the only other 8th Ed. core-fast cav I can think of with similar stats though. (Marauder horsemen).
With light armour and spear, they cost just as much, and the Reavers have +1M, +1I, +1Ld and ASF.
The Marauders have more options (which makes them cost more, but they still have a worse statline), so yeah - Reavers are fine.

Great Eagles - but the design to give them bonuses for 5/10pts is the worst concept ever,

No one forces you to purchase them.

Rare units are great, whatever combination. 25% allowance is the major problem.

Like most/all other 8th Ed. books.

Scroll Carry. With Book of Hoeth being good and worth it's price, you need 2nd mage or another lord caster to just carry a scroll. That's like 110pts thrown away just for scroll.

So...like most/all other 8th Ed. books?

From my calulations, depending on list, you are left with 500-700pts on special units

Well, le'ts see.

2500 pts game, a lvl 4 costs ~320. A Noble BSB costs ~150.
25% of core = 625 pts.

This leaves you with ~1400 pts (~56%) to spend on Special and/or Rare.
No one forces you to take multiple lords or heroes mate, and you don't have to take rare units.

I agree (kinda) on the BotWD.
It's only broken vs DoC. Vs some armies it's very underpriced, but vs most armies it's ok:ish priced.

[Gondarion]

This all strikes me as pre-emptive pessimism. We can't know yet how synergies are going to play out, the tweaks are so numerous and there are a number of new things.

[GruPax]

I honestly dissagree on so many levels
-asf eagles are great to kill mages, ws4 str4 2 att and stomp should about do it most of the times vs a lvl2.
-swordmasters are cheaper and are in my opinion costed appropriatly now.
-the annionted is perfect for adding to a unit with a mage on high magic, one succesfull spell bumps up the units ward to 5+
-Dragon princes are better with the ward save, immune to all stomps and still have 2 str5 (mostly rerollable) on the charge - how can this possibly be bad - a unit of 7 seems perfect to head on a lot of monsters, and to flank as support (give them a flaming banner, & add a noble with lance and gem of sunfire to have a can-opener)
-spears I find costed correctly, spears are perfect for murdering skellies/zombies/slaves/spearmen... as always (only magic makes them better vs other things)
-reavers aren't bad for their cost. a high ld is all that fast cav needs to be effective - they rally well & pass most panic & march tests - and on top they have a decent bs to actually hit with thier bows. nothing more you should expect from fast cav really. - yes it sucks that IoB have both on them, but that's life.
-silver helms are indeed generic, but their asf and above average I, makes sure that unlike other armies they have less chance of the rubber lance sydrom.
-the loremaster I find pretty good,, with good armour, he's able to survive most basic mage hunters, wich is sufficient. 230 is indeed a bit much but I guess that's the premium you pay for having a mage that doesn't die by a breese of wind. (if you don't like the 2handed sword, then give him a cheap magic weapon and shield of the merwyrm for a nice 4+/4++ in combat - he can always heal a wound by giving a unit regen 5+)

as for the Botwd, don't deamons have units with stomps and thunderstomps, that should do a lot if it's on an infantry unit. if it's on cav, the unit wont be that numerous enough attacks should still be able to kill the unit fast enough especially with killing blow&hatred.

-they flying chariots might not be that good for their points, but they really look impressive , that makes them ok in my book.
-the new birds look awfull and lack any form of elegance and dynamics (though currently it seem I'm the only one with that vision)
-the lion chariot, I'll continue to not use, T4 stinks for the cost - if it was 5 I'd consider them.
-still no scytes on the tyranoc, ...ahw well
-seahelm is kind of fun if you have a non stubborn unit that you don't want to have flanked (he'd be more used if you could mount him on a horse though, but that wouldn't suit his fluff I guess)
-the handmaiden I find a waste of textspace for her point cost ...

I'm also really sold on the dragon mage, his option for armour, str4 breath of the dragon and the 3+ scaly skin of his mount actually makes him viable now.
ooh, and high elves can ambush better then beastmen now, I feel sad for my beastmen

And I really, really wanted back the old fighting styles of the white lions... they still feel to generic for me. Glad I haven't bough any still.

[Celendur]

I respect any fellow nerd who'll draw up a review on a new book so quickly

That said, I'm not sure a cost analysis moves us very far forward yet; we haven't had time to test ideas, discover unexpected designs to exploit, what the interactions with our various metas are (no such thing as 'the' meta ). Some interesting preliminary thoughts, look forward to comparing it to the consensus in 6 or 8 months' time.

[Furion]

Thank you for your replies.
I'll answer only one of points mentioned in your list Minsc, only becouse all the other querries you mentioned would follow the same line of reasoning if I was going to answer them.

I dissagree. For 70 pts he looses one attack (-20), but gains a innate 4+ ward (+40), comes with heavy armour and a halberd (+10), MR2 (+30), Fear (+10), a 6+ ward to his unit (~ +30 pts? Probably more due to the High Magic lore-attribute) and while you don't like ItP, I do. I've failed to many panic checks even with Ld9 to disdain it. So +10 pts for that.
70+20-40-10-30-10-30-10 = -40. Look at that, he get's stuff for free. Hardly overpriced.

There is a major problem you did there. Strength (and therefore, price) of units in warhammer (as in most other games) is not a linear relation. The actual mathematical relations between stats and cost are complicated and cannot be expressed by simple addition or substraction operations.

From your list: Fear is pointless, MR doesn't stack and you have BOTWD, 6+ ward save for a unit is negligible and halberd for character is definately not +10 pts. 4+ ward save is also hardly worth 40 pts compared with 3 attacks and lack of ability to be on horse.

[spears] Overpriced by 2 pts, should be 7.

Compare them to any other S3/T3 core infantry out there

Dark Elf Warriors?

Anyways, thank you for your feedback.

cheers
Furion

[Minsc]

From your list: Fear is pointless, MR doesn't stack and you have BOTWD, 6+ ward save for a unit is negligible and halberd for character is definately not +10 pts.

Fear is hardly pointless, and it has a set value. (10 pts).
MR stacks with wardsaves, and he essentially gives his unit MR(3) from the get-go. MR has a set value, and MR(3) is worth 45 pts. Also, You're a fool if you put BotWD in the same unit as the Anointed.
You might think a 6+ ward negligible but that does not mean that it is. It's worth points, especially considering our new lore-attribute.
I said "Heavy armour + Halberd" - that's worth ~10 points.

. 4+ ward save is also hardly worth 40 pts compared with 3 attacks and lack of ability to be on horse.

Now you're just being silly.
So a 4+ ward on a BSB (3A) or a mage (1A) on foot is worthless?

A 4+ ward is worth 45 points. A 4+ ward that doesn't steal from your magic allowance is probably worth even more, but I won't go that far.

Dark Elf Warriors?

7th Ed. armybook.

[Furion]

try Empire Halbeldiers then.

[Minsc]

try Empire Halbeldiers then.

HE Spearmen would tear them a new one.

[Furion]

Once again I'm afraid you miss the bigger picture. Halbeldiers can have Hate and +1 to hit from hurricanum. Spearmen can only have 6+ ward save with Annointed with them

As I said, proper pricing of the unit is hard and must include looking at the bigger picture.

cheers
Furion

[Minsc]

Once again I'm afraid you miss the bigger picture. Halbeldiers can have Hate and +1 to hit from hurricanum. Spearmen can only have 6+ ward save with Annointed with them

Wow, you're so incredibly biased, it starts to feel like I'm talking to a wall.

I might as well say that the Spearmen can have a pet Frostheart that gives the Halberdiers -1S for the same price of that Warrior Priest and Hurricanum.

[GruPax]

@Misc: the topic is "Furion's thoughts on the new armybook and cost of units", so your thoughts are off topic minsc

in all seriousness, I see what you're saying Furion, but I play 7 armies and when I compare them I'd say the costing overall compared to the abilities isn't bad at first glance (and a 6+ ward for an entire unit is not negligible it saves 1/6, when in a unit of models costing 10+ points where their armour won't save that much, it's value really starts to go up, saving models ranks= less cr for the opponent, less panic tests, less chance for your unit to be wiped out at the end of turn 6)

[Minsc]

@Misc: the topic is "Furion's thoughts on the new armybook and cost of units", so your thoughts are of topic minc

Well that's a great way to run a (discussion)Forum - "Agree with me or be quiet."

I think that's the norm in North-Korea. I hear their forums are the best.

[Furion]

It was never my intention to force someone to agree with me
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion. Mine is that HE are overpriced. I provided my point of view on the matter. Feel free to provide your input, whatever it might be

So, to sum up this short. HE overpriced. Discuss!

cheers
Furion

[kostasrag8]

PG 14pts is perfect , 13 is too cheap .
SH 23 pts with shield... is ok i guess, though the perfect should be 22pts
spears same old song.
archers ok


i dont want to talk a lot , but i believe that the book is so much better than the previous one that i dont even care if 3-4 overpriced units ( DPs, bolt chariot, lion chariot, loremaster)

about the core.

they are much much better than the previous ones, reavers / SH on core maybe some archers and you are good to go , basic support units as core ought to be.

lions with no reroll although they are correctly priced , they dont "strike" me on picking them , yes they are s6 but still .... no reroll .

furion, if ETC comp is like Book = 2PD, 1DD ,banner is 1DD what will you pick . banner or scroll ?

[Furion]

ETC comp shouldn't be like that.

But given that option... I guess I would go with scroll.

[kostasrag8]

you cant trust the AR

the Fireborn Special rule (which is what the armor confers) affects the model, not just the wearer.

So the dragon has that same rule. Even a chariot if your noble/prince is mounted on one. Hell, the flamespyre phoenix grants the ward save to the anointed, too.

interesting little piece of info .


too be honest i think HE will have an issue with multiple monstrous units if they are low on phoenixs and flyers. and ETC want to comp them

[Shannar, Sealord]

Fear is hardly pointless, and it has a set value. (10 pts).
MR stacks with wardsaves, and he essentially gives his unit MR(3) from the get-go. MR has a set value, and MR(3) is worth 45 pts. Also, You're a fool if you put BotWD in the same unit as the Anointed.
You might think a 6+ ward negligible but that does not mean that it is. It's worth points, especially considering our new lore-attribute.
I said "Heavy armour + Halberd" - that's worth ~10 points.

Just because something has a price assigned to it does not mean that it's "worth" that price (isn't that the point he's trying to make anyway?), especially taken in combination.

Personally I still have some hope for the anointed and will be trying him out more. I took the loremaster last night, honestly he suffers from the same thing as LSG- to many roles and it means he's over priced for one and not as good at the other (though in the loremasters case he's not as good at either). Much like the LSG it's also a really cool concept, but after the cool factor wears off I don't think we'll see as many of them. The sea helm is also pretty marginal. Only place I really want to try him out is on his flying chariot as BSB Get him the best AS I can and luckstone. Even then I think it's mostly just for fun that I'm interested in doing that. Handmaiden might be ok if you are planning on a fairly large sisters unit, but who has the space for that?

[RE.Lee]

Its a pity about the loremaster - what equipment did you give him? BoH?

[Lecai]

Hey there Furion, I pretty much agree with all your points except for the Dragon Princes being listed under the "Highly Overpriced" section:

Dragon Princes. 2+ save, S3. They are useless in current metagame. Since they're special, they should be like 24 pts, not 29.

...Along with a reduction of 1pts they've also gained +1 M from "Ithilmar Barding", a 6++ Ward from the new Dragon Armour, a 75pts banners allowance which lets them take the Rampager's Standard which is nice on a unit depending on getting the charge, a 50pts weapons/armour allowance for the champ with some nice&new magic weapons like the cheap Star Lance costing only 15 slaves and finally the new MP allowing them to fight in three ranks. I'm not even counting the army-wide synergies from things like new High Magic etc.

Other than a possible use Lord Anathir mentioned through taking "some sort of super cav bus with the 6+ basic ward save and a high mage stacking it", cheaper and smaller supporting versions could also be viable:

5x Dragon Princes of Caledor - Full Command, Banner of Swiftness, Star Lance = 220 (A cheaper 195pts version without the BoS could also work)

Assuming you're not already using the Star Lance or the Banner of Swiftness somewhere else in the army, this one could work as a fast and hard-hitting support unit for only 220pts. M10 plus the Swiftstride bonus on the charge is pretty damn good for a unit depending on getting that charge to cause some damage. The Star Lance champ is a good one in the current metagame, 3 WS5 I6 S6 ASF hits ignoring armour saves can easily remove an entire MC model or put 3 wounds on a WoC chariot.

[Shannar, Sealord]

I did give him BoH, and with it he can spam spells really nicely. But the rest of the points had to go to keeping him alive in combat. I went with armor of silver steel for the 2+.

I just think an archmage with BoH makes a far more effective magic phase and a prince kitted for combat makes for a better combat phase. This guy dabbles in both, but can't really dominate either. And by taking him your best mage is going to be a level two, this also hurts when it comes time to dispell.

[Minsc]

Just because something has a price assigned to it does not mean that it's "worth" that price (isn't that the point he's trying to make anyway?), especially taken in combination.

Probably, but I maintain that the AoA is worth every point you spend on him over a Prince.
If on foot, you do want to build your army around him though, or at the very least, have a specific unit to put him in.

[Jara-]

Some random thoughts after reading a few NEW HE -topics:

I agree with the people who think that the new book is stronger in terms of pure gameplay power. The wide lowering in point costs is greeted warmly. I won't take part in the discussion if the point costs were dropped enough. Yet.

Also, I see the new HE being a huge deal more mobile army having Tiranocs and Reavers in core. Not to mention all the other flying little creatures.

High Lore and magic items are more or less different now but I really like the new ones. HE still seems to be an army that relies on magic and it's synergies. Hmm... Should I or should I not take the Banner of the World Dragon in every single list? Book of Hoeth being the replacer of Banner of Sorcery.

[pk-ng]

The sea helm is also pretty marginal. Only place I really want to try him out is on his flying chariot as BSB Get him the best AS I can and luckstone. Even then I think it's mostly just for fun that I'm interested in doing that. Handmaiden might be ok if you are planning on a fairly large sisters unit, but who has the space for that?

My take if I do take Seahelm BSB

Seahlm BSB on Skycutter
Reaver Bow
Shield of Ptolos
Luckstone

[ducky11]

I am with minsc all the way on this one. I disagree with 85% of Furion's analysis. However, I will focus on the two points I most disagree with: The Anointed, and The Loremaster.

I have played 2 test games already, one against a rock solid Chaos list at that. In each these two characters have been my stars. I can not overstate how valuable the ability to cast 8 spells all reliably on 2 dice with book of hoeth is. It is totally worth 230pts ESPECIALLY when taking into consideration its a 230 point character that is quite survivable and has combat ability.

As for the Anointed all I can say is that the fact that you do not have to pay for a 4+ ward save in your magic items allowance is invaluable. A prince with a 4+ wardsave is 185pts with a 55 point magic allowance... Are you saying +1 A and +1 Ld are really worth an extra 45pts of magic items? I don't see it. As for the rest of the price difference 185pts is 25pts less then the anointed. Surely the 6+ ward, MR 2, ItP, and fear are worth 25pts. Even taking relative utility into account, at worst, you are looking at even value of the prince and anointed. I don't see a game I will ever play a prince, unless I run a cavalry army.

Obviously each to his own, but given the rest of your points break down you clearly are looking at the 7th edition books when comparing the points costs. If you compare the book to the 8th books if anything much of the army is undercosted. I find it hilarious how much this forum is complaining about how mediocre our new book is while the rest of the warhammer world is complaining about how broken it is. Usually that means the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The High Elf book looks to be very competitive and I would put it right on par with WoC, which I don't see as a bad thing at all.

[RE.Lee]

I just think an archmage with BoH makes a far more effective magic phase and a prince kitted for combat makes for a better combat phase. This guy dabbles in both, but can't really dominate either. And by taking him your best mage is going to be a level two, this also hurts when it comes time to dispell.

I was thinking about using him in addition to an archmage with the BoH. As you're pretty much forced to take a second mage for the dispel scroll, why not make him a decent fighter (ogre blade, shield of merwyrm, OTS)? Fits nicely in a 2500/2400 points list.

[Mireadur]

Im with minsc on all of his analysis...Sooo dont need to add anything else hehehe.

[Shannar, Sealord]

The sea helm is also pretty marginal. Only place I really want to try him out is on his flying chariot as BSB Get him the best AS I can and luckstone. Even then I think it's mostly just for fun that I'm interested in doing that. Handmaiden might be ok if you are planning on a fairly large sisters unit, but who has the space for that?

My take if I do take Seahelm BSB

Seahlm BSB on Skycutter
Reaver Bow
Shield of Ptolos
Luckstone

That's pretty much my thought on him as well.

I was thinking about using him in addition to an archmage with the BoH. As you're pretty much forced to take a second mage for the dispel scroll, why not make him a decent fighter (ogre blade, shield of merwyrm, OTS)? Fits nicely in a 2500/2400 points list.

That's probably how I'll try him next - maybe different equipement. It's just an awful lot of points in lords for my usual taste. But I'll save some of that by not taking the scroll caddy so it might work out.

[Rhawtir]

I think you should consider swordmasters now ditch in more supporting attacks and also have a tiny ward save. The sea helm can make a unit on the flank virtually have no flank and a mage in phoenix guard can in one go make them 3+ ward. I mean, of course everything isnt' great, but really, bs5 handguns that fire in three ranks and can move and shoot, is pretty sweet. 70 points bolt throwers, Ellyrian as core..

I really do think this might work, I mean, it's not Daemons of chaos or anything, but we elves saw worse in the 6th edition. I remember when every high elf list looked pretty much the same. So yeah, I don't really see what's worse from the last book