Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

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Tethlis
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Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#1 Post by Tethlis »

I've been enjoying the online community reaction to the new Banner of the World Dragon. I particularly like the 9-page thread over at the Daemonic Legion, calling it the most broken item that's ever been created. There are calls for it to be banned universally, in the same way that the old Teclis, the old Book of Hoeth, etc. were treated.

My reaction as a Fantasy player is that this is a startling overreaction. As someone who is played all three Elven armies, and not necessarily when any of them were at the height of their power, I've played a lot of games where I see an enemy unit and instantly know that it can't be killed. I know I'll never get VP for it, that I can't stop it, that it will kill any of my units that it reaches, and that I need to avoid/redirect it for the entire game and focus on getting points elsewhere. This concept has never been strange for me, and I just accept that it's a strategic factor to take into account. This phenomenon is still alive and well today... If you've ever fought an Ogre Gustar with Runemaw, it's probably a feeling you can relate to. I personally think that no one combat unit is ever a threat, because that's why armies have redirectors. If you don't want to every fight one unit in an opponent's army, odds are that you can make that happen.

I wanted to know how other players feel about the Banner, how you feel about its power level, and whether the hatred from others is justified towards this item.
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#2 Post by HERO »

rofl, same over on Carpe Noctem (Vampire Counts).

A unit they can't SCREAM to death? THE END OF THE WORLD!

Apparently flanking and tarpitting is a foreign concept vs. SMASH X UNIT WITH Y BUS.
I wanted to know how other players feel about the Banner, how you feel about its power level, and whether the hatred from others is justified towards this item.
I feel the item is poorly designed. No item should give you an insane advantage vs. one faction/race and feel like deadweight vs. others. There's a concept when designing items, abilities or skills (such as in World of WarCraft). You generally want to avoid the design that will force bi-polar reactions when introduced to the environment. With that said, the item is well-balanced internally (priced well, only elite units can take them) and from a general design standpoint (fluffy, matches HE flavor, translates well from fluff to table), but it's piss poor when balanced externally (shits on DoC, not so much vs. Ogres).

Now.. is it overpowered from an external balance standpoint? Nah, I don't think so. The fact that there are only a few cases and matchups that the BotWD will upset, the vast majority will balance it out. If anything, it's those armies (minus Daemons) who will need to readjust their strategies and priorities.
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#3 Post by ~Milliardo~ »

Great thread title. =D>
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#4 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

I think this is a prefect example of the problem caused by the new world of comp everywhere. People complain enough and things get banned. Doesn't really matter how effective it actually is. In the end I think most comps will ban it, and before any one really has a chance to see how bad it actually is.

But yes, unless that one unit was designed to deny deamons points (which still isn't a winning strategy, just a not loosing/loosing by less strategy) it's nothing they shouldn't be able to deal with. And if I were to use it that way I'd be shooting myself in the foot against every other army out there.
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#5 Post by THRILLHELM »

Man now I need to go and read that thread. The best part is a lot of the lists that have been posted in light of all the leaks have chosen not to take it. Whether that's because they don't want such a powerful item or, like myself they just don't have a unit to carry it because of monsters. I will be pretty upset if it just gets auto banned though, heaven forbid you have to think about which unit to charge.
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#6 Post by Mrfantastical »

Hahaha I came to the board just now to see if anyone else has been getting new toy envy. One of my groups Skaven players was especially mad at the banner, and Arcane Unforging.

My group insists the Banner rules have to be a typo, and that it protects from Spell damage (like 'Magic Resistance"). We'll see in a day or 2.
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#7 Post by HERO »

I will be pretty upset if it just gets auto banned though, heaven forbid you have to think about which unit to charge.
Yup.. which is why I think it won't see bans. All it does is change the meta a little, and that's always a good thing.
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#8 Post by Sackree »

People need to realise that this banner affects only one unit!

Daemons can still smash the rest of the army, vampires can still scream at other units.

I've said it once, but i'll end yp saying it a thousand times for sure before saturday, how can people be screaming that it is broken when they have never even played against it yet. For god sake the book isn't even out yet.

Daemon players are still in a 7th ed hangover and think they should slaughter all, it's time for them to wake up and adjust to the new game, because whether they like it or not, this item exists, and they need to learn to deal with it, just like we learnt to deal with the new daemon prince, gut-stars, blender vamp busses.
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#9 Post by Big Brother »

Here's a great part. For just 10 points per elite unit, you can put banners everywhere and really make them wonder who to charge. :D
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#10 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

The deamon player in our group does not see what the big deal is. But he's the type to try some ideas out before getting worked up.
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#11 Post by Silver »

I play mostly uncomped. If I come across a high elf in a tournament who has that banner, I'm screwed out of a big win automatically instead of having a chance and to work for it.

It is the most ridiculous addition to 8th edition yet, making the 3++ reroll 1s seem like nothing hard to crack.

Had it been 75 pts, or BSB only really, I would've been quite fine with the banner. Because cracking one model isn't as insane as cracking an ENTIRE UNIT of 2++ ward saves against ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING in my army.
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#12 Post by Tethlis »

I think the reason it isn't BSB only is pretty clear. If it was BSB only, it would only ever be viable in cavalry busses or in multi-character Deathstars, because those are the only unit configurations that let a T3 Elf with pretty much no protection survive more than a single round of combat. I think GW priced it at 50 deliberately to promote playstyle variety, and allow any unit to receive its protection, rather than having it be an item that's completely unworkable except in a few specific builds.
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#13 Post by Axiem »

This phenomenon is still alive and well today... If you've ever fought an Ogre Gustar with Runemaw, it's probably a feeling you can relate to.
This is the best example; when Runemaw came out, people around here complained endlessly that it meant the end of Covens, Death casters and the like, but it turns out it wasn't. People played around the Deathstar and figured out other ways of beating it - and it had an impact on every army that had offensive magic, not just 2-3. The same will happen with the BotWD; people will complain, but they'll figure out other ways of dealing.

Or they won't. And they'll fail endlessly, and continue to wine. Like people still do about the Runemaw today.

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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#14 Post by Shadeseraph »

I think it IS a stupid item. Not because it's powerful, but because it hard counters selectively, and in a bad way. Other factions having this kind of items isn't a justification, either, it's bad design full stop.

Do I think it warrants all the whine it is seeing? Not at all. Most of the complaints are about how a "theoretical deathstar" with about 5/6 of the points spent on it, can give DoC, dwarves, WE and VC a run for their money.
On a TAC environment (including competitive settings), this theoretical army can give some armies a serious headaches, but it's terribly weak against a lot of other things, as HE aren't exactly a good deathstar army. You can win battles with this kind of armies, but you won't win tourneys.
On a private environment, if you are list tailoring and you take the deathstar against a DoC player? You deserve the beating he is going to give you. Or he just won't game you again with his DoC army.

Personally, while I hate the item (I won't be taking it, in the same way I never took the old BoH, which means it is effectively a wasted magic item slot), I like a couple of its effects quite a lot:
-It's an awesome "anti-deathstar" item. I'd be glad to send a Dragon Prince unit to stall for the full game the enemies deathstar full of kitted heroes.
-It forces everyone (included other HE generals) to move away from kitted out characters. This is a strategy game, not an arena. I want my army to win battles, not some unique snowflakes.
So, if I ever use it, it would be with the agreement of the other player, and under these rules:
-Ward save 2+ against wounds caused by spells and magic weapons wielded by characters.
-Stubborn to all dragons within 12"
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#15 Post by Guerric »

Axiem wrote:
Or they won't. And they'll fail endlessly, and continue to wine. Like people still do about the Runemaw today.
Even if they find something, they'll endlessly complain, because it's about High Elves stuff and on the internet it seems you've to complain about High Elves' stuff.

There's already well known powerfull spell which don't care about any save but in this case everyone seems to forget. And before we were immune to all these powerfull spells !
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#16 Post by Teledor »

I don't quite get all the nerdrage honestly. It's an incredibly powerful item. It screws with a few armies selectively. These aren't great ways to design a game, but then again GW has never cared about the competitive balance between army books. They just kind of do whatever they feel like, tournament scene be damned - no?

Anyways, it's not like this makes the unit unbreakable - you still have to roll break tests, hasn't anyone rolled over 10 twice to fail a rerollable 10 leadership test? That's why the idea of a DP anti-deathstar tarpit won't work. Maybe you'll win combat first round. Second round however, swinging with mighty Str 3 you'll likely lose because that deathstar has ranks, likely a BSB and you didn't kill enough to over come these bonuses.

Either way, players will learn how to deal with it.. having ten small units with a banner somewhere means teeny unit you can't kill, so wipe out everything else. It's in a massive deathstar unit of my own? - employ your chaff effectively. Afraid of my shooting taking out your chaff? - use your shooting or magic what have you that lets you clear chaff or missile troops. You don't know any other way to play your army but to move forward saying "Hulk smash!"? Then read up on tactics and start thinking while you play.

We've dealt with all types of crap - my special favorite Gut-stars, Ironblasters and Ledbelchers - and yes we complain about it too, but we've adapted and learned to deal with them; or sometimes you just get plain lucky. The game's played with dice for crying out loud.. shit can happen in all sorts of ways.
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#17 Post by jamierk »

From now on, can well call it "Banner of the End of the World Dragon"???
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#18 Post by Caradryal »

This will create huge amounts of whining from daemon players, luckily I don't see very many of them.

To be honest though I wouldn't be bothered about facing the item as I usually have plenty of chaff/redirectors in my lists, thus allowing me to ignore the unit and take points elsewhere.
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#19 Post by First Strike »

Love it or hate it it would be silly not to take it if you can see a use for it, I will be giving it a go for a while to see where it stands like most of the items in the new book.
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#20 Post by knightwire »

I think it's a stupidly designed banner and underpriced for what it does. If GW wanted the 50pt price point then it should have been 4+ all around at a minimum, or dropped the magical attacks protection knowing how it screws DoC.

As our only banner I think it really sucks. ;) No need for it and much rather would have seen something else in that slot.

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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#21 Post by auticus »

So for those that think that this is no big deal and that demon players just need to get over it and learn to play (lulz) please explain the following scenario:

High elf player 2000 point roster crams 75% of his army into a unit of white lions with the banner, teclis, a level 2, and a BSB.

1500 points locked into this unit vs the demons. 1500 points locked into a unit that the demons can't really get to. The ultimate in points denial. 1500 points sitting on a sweet 2+ ward save.

The demon player basically has to kill the 500 points you've been gracious enough to leave and not lose more than 400 points to pull out a win. I think that most high elf players with a pulse can kill 400 points of demons with their magic alone, not counting the archer fire.

Lets be even more generous and remove some points from the bunker. Add a dragon to guard a flank, couple bolt throwers.

You still have 1000 - 1200 points locked away in this bunker unit that has a 2+ ward save against the entire demon army.

You can say "learn to flank lulz". I would think as a high elf player I would *want* the demon player to come try to charge the unit because the demon player is basically wiping his ass with the unit and handing you a free check for some free victory points.

The demon player can't give up any points if hes trying to win. Demon players agianst this configuration are going to be playing hard for a draw. The bunker unit doesn't need to get into combat. Chaffe units, redirect units, these are worthless because the unit doesn't need to come out and fight.... it needs to protect teclis or whoever the level 4 is and the level 2 to allow them to mete their spells out without worrying about dying.

We all know it only takes a single #6 spell going off to cripple most units. Once the high elf player breaches 400 points killed on the demons (and what's that... a unit or so?) its mathematically like winning power ball for the demon player to win and once the high elf player breaches 600 points killed on the demons its game.

Is that good for the game to have such a polar hard counter? This is 40k with grey knights vs demons. Same type of game.

Does the banner break the game? No. Does it make games vs a certain army pointless to play? Absolutely. Is that good for the game? maybe "for the lulz". This is the kind of crap that drives people out of the game and to others like warmachine, kings of war, etc...

Before we mention that demons were busted in the last edition; prior editions shouldn't punish or reward game balance. Lest I remind everyone here the abomination that was the 5th edition ride on the power gamer orgasm high elf book.
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#22 Post by RogueSun »

I'm concerned that the banner will be universally banned, even in soft comp tournaments here in the US. I've only been a High Elf player for about three years and as such I've NEVER been able to use Teclis or the Book of Hoeth. Even in friendly Rogue Trader style tournaments it's always been: everything is allowed except Teclis, Book of Hoeth, Fateweaver and Folding Fortress.

That's two things from High Elves that were just accepted as banned items. Now I'm concerned people will just ban it outright, even in soft comped events like the aforementioned, because it is universally accepted that banning things from High Elves is OK. This is further reinforced by the huge outrage every other forum is demonstrating towards the banner.

I agree, it was a poorly designed item, but it isn't as over powered as people say. It is powerful, but so is the Runemaw. I hope people will come to their senses and realize that redirecting and avoiding any unit big enough to truly benefit from the Banner is VERY possible and one of the best ways to win against any army. As Tethlis said earlier, there are some units you instantly recognize as impossible for your army to bring down, so you play around them. Honestly, it's not that hard, Wood Elves have been doing it for years.
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#23 Post by jamierk »

Anyone banned hellheart at tournaments? I'd rather take one of them than BoTWD. Anyone played against double terrorghiest lists?
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#24 Post by Shadeseraph »

You know? One thing I'm grateful for is that this banner pretty much has made any complaints about the phoenixes (which, in my view, are a lot more universally dangerous) unnoticeable.

I see people around marking them off as "uninspiring" or "weak". WTF?
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#25 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Shadeseraph wrote:You know? One thing I'm grateful for is that this banner pretty much has made any complaints about the phoenixes (which, in my view, are a lot more universally dangerous) unnoticeable.

I see people around marking them off as "uninspiring" or "weak". WTF?
I'm reasonably convinced that most people don't understand how this game actually works.
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#26 Post by Sulla1111 »

Big Brother wrote:Here's a great part. For just 10 points per elite unit, you can put banners everywhere and really make them wonder who to charge. :D
If you take a lot of elites, you're not gonna get a lot of value out of it. What all the moaners are worried about is a huge deathstar with the banner and 90% of the HE army contained in it. That sort of build would be autolose for daemons and even most dwarven armies that came across it. (In return, they would probably be near an autolose against a lot of DE and WE lists though, I expect, since they would take out the chaff and hurt the deathstar with ranged attacks while avoiding it in combat. Heck, even beastmen would give them a good run for their money since all their spells are hex or augments so they would just buff their own deathstar up the wazoo and go toe to toe...)
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#27 Post by Ciratan »

The trouble with this banner is the ward is too much. Should have been 4+ for that cost. Especially for a banner that can be the unit standard. It affects far more than demon players. There are countless magical attacks in the game. The unit carrying this standard is impervious to magic missiles and direct damage. Basically everything except something like Dwellers. Dwarven artillery cannot touch this unit as it is almost always runed. Enemy characters almost always have magical attacks. Skaven warp weapons are useless. The new Khorne cannons. The list goes on.

We can make a heck of a deathstar around this thing. Lord and BsB in the front rank of WLs and archmage in rank two. What could possibly take down this unit? And our reavers and eagles can easily out manuever the enemy redirectors.

The item would not have been op if it's ward was 4+ or it could only be taken by the BsB.
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#28 Post by Eirik »

Ethereals were just as poorly designed, but in competitive tournaments you don't see tons of ethereals in a list because they will be dead points against some matchups. That is not to say that you see no ethereals. You will also see BotWD in competitive lists, but a massive deathstar that relies on the banner and contains 4 characters is unreliable and won't happen.
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#29 Post by HERO »

Shadeseraph wrote:You know? One thing I'm grateful for is that this banner pretty much has made any complaints about the phoenixes (which, in my view, are a lot more universally dangerous) unnoticeable.

I see people around marking them off as "uninspiring" or "weak". WTF?
lol yeah.
The Frost Phoenix is much more of a meta changer :P T4 Elves you say?
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Re: Banner of the World Dragon: Sweet Tears of Nerdrage

#30 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I don't like that banner as it is a similar "failed Ward" effect as in the case of Skull Cannon. It is very good for its cost and it becomes a "must have" item. I like the potential of the new army book for even greater variety of the army lists. Such items limit that. But then, I have no idea about how that games works, since I find such item uninspiring. :lol:
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