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 Post subject: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:31 pm 
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Hey guys,
I looked through some of the army book thread but couldnt find a lot and some of the stuff I saw contradicted eachother so I figured I'd just ask. Is there any reliable rumor yet on what these two phoenix guys are gonna do? I guess the top of my wish list would be something that "comes back to life" after a cannonball makes it go splat, for obvious reasons. Thanks ahead of time for any info.

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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:49 pm 
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Not as far as I can see, the only hint has been either suggestions of buffing nearby units ala Hurricanum etc or dropping templates on units as they move over them as a reworking of the emberstorm attacks from Monstrous Arcanum.


Exactly what they do really depends on whether they turn out to be character mounts, combined profile monsters or flying monstrous cavalry.

I'm excited for whatever they turn out to be and will probably get some regardless of their rules.

Al


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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:04 pm 
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The models look way too big to be flying monstrous cavalry, they look almost as big as the dragons right near them. I'm hoping you're right because flying monstrous Cav would kick butt. It's weird, because there ARE 3 of them in that picture, which is the typical Monstrous Cav#, but the fact that one of them is blue makes you think they aren't because wouldnt they all have to be the same kind? Those pictures are usually faithful to game mechanics.

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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:23 pm 
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if they have a 5+ ward in combat, and vs strength 3,4,5 shooting, and a 4+ ward vs cannons i be very happy


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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:43 pm 
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MartinElf wrote:
if they have a 5+ ward in combat, and vs strength 3,4,5 shooting, and a 4+ ward vs cannons i be very happy


I think 4+ ward is highly likely because:
A) Rebirth type rules would be hard to write and complicated, especially with riders
B) They look to be a new killer app, but are quite frail in appearance
C) Every other unit in our army with "Pheonix" In it's name has a 4+ ward ;)

I'm really hoping for something like magic resistance, ward saves, or fire resistance that transfer to the rider, because that's less points we have to spend on mandatory magic items for our combat lords.

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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:19 pm 
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eriktheguy wrote:
MartinElf wrote:
if they have a 5+ ward in combat, and vs strength 3,4,5 shooting, and a 4+ ward vs cannons i be very happy


I think 4+ ward is highly likely because:
A) Rebirth type rules would be hard to write and complicated, especially with riders
B) They look to be a new killer app, but are quite frail in appearance
C) Every other unit in our army with "Pheonix" In it's name has a 4+ ward ;)

I'm really hoping for something like magic resistance, ward saves, or fire resistance that transfer to the rider, because that's less points we have to spend on mandatory magic items for our combat lords.


A Rebirth rule has already been written by Forgeworld and it's quite simple. If the Phoenix is killed, roll a D6, on a 5+ it regains one wound and models in B2B suffer a S5 flaming hit. Rider profiles are likely combined so this will make it even easier.

And I really doubt it'll get a 4+ save seeing as how it's a monster and how we only have one unit with which to reference for Phoenix in its name.


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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:23 am 
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RogueSun wrote:
And I really doubt it'll get a 4+ save seeing as how it's a monster and how we only have one unit with which to reference for Phoenix in its name.


Yeah, I was just being a smartass :)

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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:54 am 
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eriktheguy wrote:
RogueSun wrote:
And I really doubt it'll get a 4+ save seeing as how it's a monster and how we only have one unit with which to reference for Phoenix in its name.


Yeah, I was just being a smartass :)



Well slow your roll there sparky! A 4+ ward really isn't out of the question, it'd be a fantastic way to keep your monster alive and if they're trying to keep it priced at ~200 i don't see any reason why the 4+ is so OOP...

But really, i'll take anything at this point haha

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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:39 am 
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RogueSun wrote:
eriktheguy wrote:
MartinElf wrote:
if they have a 5+ ward in combat, and vs strength 3,4,5 shooting, and a 4+ ward vs cannons i be very happy


I think 4+ ward is highly likely because:
A) Rebirth type rules would be hard to write and complicated, especially with riders
B) They look to be a new killer app, but are quite frail in appearance
C) Every other unit in our army with "Pheonix" In it's name has a 4+ ward ;)

I'm really hoping for something like magic resistance, ward saves, or fire resistance that transfer to the rider, because that's less points we have to spend on mandatory magic items for our combat lords.


A Rebirth rule has already been written by Forgeworld and it's quite simple. If the Phoenix is killed, roll a D6, on a 5+ it regains one wound and models in B2B suffer a S5 flaming hit. Rider profiles are likely combined so this will make it even easier.

And I really doubt it'll get a 4+ save seeing as how it's a monster and how we only have one unit with which to reference for Phoenix in its name.

Guardian Phoenix also confers a ward save. It wouldn't be out of the question if the actual phoenix also would have it

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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:58 am 
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Luna Guardian wrote:
Guardian Phoenix also confers a ward save. It wouldn't be out of the question if the actual phoenix also would have it


That's true, hadn't thought about that one. I still doubt it'll get a 4+ save. I could see a 5+ but 4+ on what will likely be a Toughness 5 monster with 4-5 wounds seems unlikely. Hopefully we find out in the next week or so, the suspense is killing me.


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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:17 am 
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RogueSun wrote:
Luna Guardian wrote:
Guardian Phoenix also confers a ward save. It wouldn't be out of the question if the actual phoenix also would have it


That's true, hadn't thought about that one. I still doubt it'll get a 4+ save. I could see a 5+ but 4+ on what will likely be a Toughness 5 monster with 4-5 wounds seems unlikely. Hopefully we find out in the next week or so, the suspense is killing me.

Guardian Phoenic gives a 5+ ward, the Phoenix Guard get a 4+ ward. By the development, and going closer and closer to the source, the Phoenix itself should have a 3+ ward :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:36 am 
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I just hope these angry birds will be granting "Speed of Asuryan" in an easy and generous fashion that does not consume Power Dice. We're already getting something to make up for the loss of army-wide ASF, be it points reduction or other special rules to buff our warriors and having lots of easy ways to add ASF on top of that will be glorious.

Possible total of ASF dispensers in the 8th ed. HE book:

The Lore of Light (guaranteed)
The new I@C rule (rumoured)
The new Phoenix (rumoured)
The new High Magic (speculation)
New magical items (speculation)
New "Honours" (speculation)


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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:45 pm 
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Abombs already have a 'rebirth' rule if they haven't been damaged by fire: On a roll of 6, gains D6 wounds.
I've killed one only to see it get back up to full health ~_~

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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:54 pm 
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WoC can get 3+ wards re rolling 1s. Why can't we have a 3+ ward phoenix? :P

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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:15 pm 
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I'll just say it, I want phoenix to have 4+ ward and transfer it to it's rider as well. Or 4+ ward and MR(2).

In any case, if it provides an ASF bubble our army is going to be a lot more swingy than before; suddenly we have this all-important linchpin monster whose death could easily mean defeat. I can see people taking 2 of them or building their riders specifically to protect the mounts (charmed shields), or building other protective elements into their army (life and light mages, parking eagles in front of it). I don't want this because I want to fight with my phoenix, not try to bunker it.

And although the ward and wounds values are pure speculation, I disagree with people who say that a 4+ ward combined with 4 or more wounds is unrealistic. Frankly it fits the fluff and plenty of armies have monstrous units that are stupidly powerful under specific conditions. The only people that would consider this broken would be the kind of people that think HE are broken for army-wide ASF, and when they one-shot it with a lucky cannonball in the next match they probably won't mention anything about cannons being broken.

I don't think a 3+ ward would be unrealistic. I don't think that immortal phoenixes (that always renter the battlefield as reinforcements the turn after they die) are unrealistic. We've been wildly wrong about speculation before and the recent string of 8th ed books have set a lot of new precedents.

So on a related topic, flying monsters and flying mounted lords are getting very common, has anyone tried featherfoe torc in a build?

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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:04 pm 
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eriktheguy wrote:
In any case, if it provides an ASF bubble our army is going to be a lot more swingy than before; suddenly we have this all-important linchpin monster whose death could easily mean defeat. I can see people taking 2 of them or building their riders specifically to protect the mounts (charmed shields), or building other protective elements into their army (life and light mages, parking eagles in front of it). I don't want this because I want to fight with my phoenix, not try to bunker it.


This could easily be a Cauldron of Blood kind of shrine-blessing for a single unit in 12" minimum or hopefully even 24" maximum instead of a constant effect in a small-ish bubble radius which would restrict the mobility of the creature a bit if you're also planning on dropping templates around the battlefield while still trying to keep in range for the buffing duty. Pairing em' up with other fast stuff like a Helm bus to keep up with the bird and combo-charging things to death with added ASF goodness would be great. Losing them wouldn't mean defeat, the ability to grant ASF is just a nice bonus to have but our armies will already have been compensated in power for the loss of SoA and ASF buffs won't be the only trick in the repertoire of this birdie. Combo-charging something with a Lion or SM regiment with better armour and new special rules as rumoured in place of SoA with this bad boy granting them ASF would just annihilate deathstars in one fell swoop! (pun intended)


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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:07 pm 
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RogueSun wrote:
Luna Guardian wrote:
Guardian Phoenix also confers a ward save. It wouldn't be out of the question if the actual phoenix also would have it


That's true, hadn't thought about that one. I still doubt it'll get a 4+ save. I could see a 5+ but 4+ on what will likely be a Toughness 5 monster with 4-5 wounds seems unlikely. Hopefully we find out in the next week or so, the suspense is killing me.


Actually...the Chimera gets EXACTLY that. Granted, its Regen, but Regen is probably about 75% as good as a ward, so its not out of the question.

The rebirth mechanics for the Monstrous Arcana Phoenix only works when it dies in CC either through straight wounds or it crumbles. That version is indeed Unbreakable and Unstable, just like the K'Daii are.

eriktheguy wrote:
I'll just say it, I want phoenix to have 4+ ward and transfer it to it's rider as well. Or 4+ ward and MR(2).


Which is precisely why I believe it is a ridden monster and not an MC mount. If it WERE MC, it would grant its ward to its rider since, as a model, you would use the best Ward save available. I don't see it getting a 3+ ward, nothing in Warhammer has that outside of the WoC book. I also don't think there is anything to indicate that it would get such a massive boon.

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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:15 pm 
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I'm right there's no way they could be monstrous cav right? They look way too big,

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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:44 pm 
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Hortennse wrote:
I'm right there's no way they could be monstrous cav right? They look way too big,


They do look way to big. But I wouldn't go so are as to say no way, this is after all GW. They do look pretty good though (the fire version anyway, not sold on the ice one).


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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:31 pm 
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Shannar, Sealord wrote:
Hortennse wrote:
I'm right there's no way they could be monstrous cav right? They look way too big,


They do look way to big. But I wouldn't go so are as to say no way, this is after all GW. They do look pretty good though (the fire version anyway, not sold on the ice one).


Size is sort of irrelevant. A Phoenix could be a Monstrous Beast, thus making it, when ridden, Monstrous Cavalry. They probably won't be on anything bigger than a chariot base, and Mournfang are MC on chariot bases.

As a single model, a Monster is in all ways superior, so hope for that.

Can they be a multiple model unit? No..no...I don't think they could even remotely rank up unless they did something crazy like put them on sideways chariot bases.


eriktheguy wrote:
This could easily be a Cauldron of Blood kind of shrine-blessing for a single unit in 12" minimum or hopefully even 24" maximum ....


I'm in the camp that doesn't really want a shrine if its a critical piece of kit that has to be included to be competitive, so I'm hoping there are no shrines at all.

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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:50 pm 
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Ptolemy wrote:
eriktheguy wrote:
This could easily be a Cauldron of Blood kind of shrine-blessing for a single unit in 12" minimum or hopefully even 24" maximum ....

You turned Lecai into a ventriloquist and me into a puppet :O

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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:55 am 
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woops!

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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:37 pm 
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I for one am pulling for some combined profile monsters. We've seen it done with Tomb Kings, so it's not a stretch for us. Dragons and Phoenixes as special and rare choices is the ideal result for me. I don't want these awesome models limited by the character allowance. As of right now I can barely get two Dragons in a standard 2500 army, and that invests over 1000 points into two characters. Even just stuffing them all into rare would be a waste. I love the Dragon and Phoenix models, and having to limit my army to just two or three of these monsters would suck. Plus, if Tomb Kings get a monster in special, why the heck can't my High Elves?

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 Post subject: Re: New Phoenixes?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:11 pm 
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Truthiness wrote:
I for one am pulling for some combined profile monsters. We've seen it done with Tomb Kings, so it's not a stretch for us. Dragons and Phoenixes as special and rare choices is the ideal result for me. I don't want these awesome models limited by the character allowance. As of right now I can barely get two Dragons in a standard 2500 army, and that invests over 1000 points into two characters. Even just stuffing them all into rare would be a waste. I love the Dragon and Phoenix models, and having to limit my army to just two or three of these monsters would suck. Plus, if Tomb Kings get a monster in special, why the heck can't my High Elves?


If we can get dragons in character AND rare slots, the flying circus army would be highly achievable. We could spend over 50% of our points on flying hard-hitters.

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